JEROME - Black holes do not exist

Can one of you clever people explain this story to me?

A powerful jet from a supermassive black hole is blasting a nearby galaxy, according to new data from NASA observatories.

How does a jet of anything emanate from a black hole, when the definition of a black hole is something that is so dense that nothing can emanate from it?

I'm confused.
 
Can one of you clever people explain this story to me?

How does a jet of anything emanate from a black hole, when the definition of a black hole is something that is so dense that nothing can emanate from it?

I'm confused.
The jet is not actually coming from the supermassive black hole itself. It is powered by the supermassive black hole. Most black holes are surrounded by disks of in-falling matter known as accretion disks:
An accretion disc (or accretion disk) is a structure formed by diffuse material in orbital motion around a central body. The central body is typically either a young star, a protostar, a white dwarf, a neutron star, or a black hole. Instabilities within the disc redistribute angular momentum, causing material in the disc to spiral inward towards the central body. Gravitational energy released in that process is transformed into heat and emitted at the disk surface in the form of electromagnetic radiation. The frequency range of that radiation depends on the central object. Accretion discs of young stars and protostars radiate in the infrared, those around neutron stars and black holes in the X-ray part of the spectrum.
When the central body is a supermassive black hole, the magnetic fields in the accretion disk are twisted by the black hole's spin. The tightening of the magnetic fields is thought to be the cause of the jet. See the Wikipedia article on relativistic jets for more details.
 
Wow. Thanks David. That brings massive confusion, but illustrates how much more there is than "it collapses", and completely changed my mind about what I was thinking of. Which makes me really glad I didn't say anything. One reason I wanted a consensus on "what happens". Until we know "what the theory says", how can we question it?

Where you are having trouble? "It collapses" simply means the atoms move closer together.

True, it may be more complicated than that but one step at a time for now.
 
I'm sure the math explains the actual mechanisms involved. I hope it does.

Here is the obvious thing about "black holes" and gravitational collapse. To use an example, we have a neutron star, say three solar masses. It has blown off all the light elements, and doesn't have enough fuel to create the energy to keep the molecules/atoms from being crushed by gravity.

Obviously there is a huge amount of EM energy released as electrons and protons and neutrons are shoved together, with protons and electrons forming neutrons, and all kinds of changes occur in the nature of the matter.

(I looked it up, there are all kinds of things involved)

Bottom line is, when the same mass, or actually less, because of all the loss from radiant energy and explosive outbursts, ejecta, etc, the same mass that was there, is now much much denser, compressed down into a smaller amount of spacetime. Because of the desnity, the gravity is more concentrated, leading to our warped spacetime, so extreme EM curves and never leaves the spacetime area.

And any matter/energy getting too close also curves in, and can't be seen.

The thing rolling around in my mind, (and I can't seem to find any published stuff about this), is at the core, we are saying dense material has more gravity than less dense matter. Not an increase, (that would violate physical law), but the gravity is more concentrated.

What I'm wondering, is there experimental evidence to show this is true?

Or to use a thought experiment. Take a sphere of neon, or some other inert gas, large enough to have gravity we can measure. Say the mass of the earth. Put a moon around it, so we have an orbiting body to observe.

Obviously this sphere is going to be huge, due to the low density of Neon. But we have the same mass, it equals the planet earth in mass. The moon orbits at the right distance, so it is a regular ellipse, not a decaying orbit.

Now, we freeze the Neon, so it becomes a liquid, a much much smaller mass, but the exact same amount. Now we have a small sphere, but with the same mass. Does this effect the moon's orbit? Has the gravity of the Neon planet changed? Because it is denser? Is the center of gravity different?

Would the moon change orbit?

I hope you see what I'm getting at. Is the gravity of our Neon planet more concentrated now? Is there less gravity effecting the moon? More gravity?

Like with a black hole, does the change cause object orbiting at a distance to change? Does the gravity change, because of density?

Or is it only real close to the dense object that gravity gets stronger?

The thing is, we say it isn't the density of an object, but the mass, that determines the gravitational energy, or interaction, with other bodies. A Kilo of lead has the same mass as a Kilo of Hydrogen.

But is that true? Is matter that is spread out over a larger area, is the gravity different because of that?

Obviously we are interested in the Black Hole issue. One minute we have a star with 3 solar masses, that doesn't have enough gravity to capture light, warp spacetime to that degree. But when it is all concentrated at a single point, now it does.

Is it about the distance to the center of gravity?

I apologize if this isn't clear. I just can't seem to find any papers that discuss this. I'm sure it has come up before.
 
robinson:

The difference?

The r2 part of the gravity equations.

Radius, or the distance between two objects, plays a major role in the force gravity exerts. The denser the material, the smaller that r can become.

If you take the Earth as an exampel, gravity increases and r decreases as you approach the surface. However, once you go under the surface of the Earth, gravity begins to decrease, reaching zero at the exact center of the Earth. The reason fo rthis is that, as you go under the surface, you have mass above you that is pulling you up. This counteracts the mass underneath you.

However, if you could squeeze the Earth into a smaller ball, then you could get closer to the center of mass and still have all the mass "under" you. For example, if you could squeeze the Earth to one half it's current diameter, then you could make the "r" term from the gravity equations half the size as well. This would make the surface gravity four times what it is now.

Think of it this way. Take a baseball bat and set it on top of a block of styrofoam. Then, set 30 lbs. of weight gently on the baseball bal to apply pressure. It might dent the styrofoam a little, but that's probably it. Now, do the same thing but use a sharp knife instead of a baseball bat. You might cut the block in half. In both cases, the amount of force being applied is the same, but the resutls are different due to the area in which the force is applied. With gravity, it's a similar idea. Black holes and neutron stars don't have any more gravity than they used to, but it's more concentrated. This isn't a great anaology, but hopefully helps get the concept across.

Now, for the other questions:

If you froze the neon, as long as the distance between it's center of mass and the moon's cente rof mass did not change, then the moon would continue to orbit as it always did. It would be the same if somehow our Sun was compressed into a black hole. Assuming it did not gain or lose mass, the Earth woudl continue to orbit as it always did. The gravity isn't changed, it's just that you can get closer to the center of mass and still have all that mass below you.

Gravity does change if the mass is spread out or concentrated, but not the force of it, just the configuration. A 9 stellar mass cloud of gas has the same gravity as a 9 stellar mass black hole. But while the gas might be spread across a cubic light year (meaning you can never get closer than half a light year to it's center of mass without being inside it), you can get VERY close to the black hole and all it's mass is still pulling you.
 
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robinson, you are right it is about the distance to the center of gravity.
As long as the Schwarzschild radius is smaller than the radius of the mass you have no black hole. At great distance the gravity is the same no matter if a normal star or a black hole is in the center.
 
Yes, but sometimes less is more. Like with black holes. Less space. More gravity!
 
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you can get closer to the center of mass of a more compact body, that's the only difference.
 
Yes Huntsman your explanation was better, but you posted during the time I wrote my short one. And I think you are a native speaker.

I was just playing with that post; you actually summed it up much more succinctly. I was probably a bit overly wordy :)

I was making a joke egotistical comment about myself as a back-handed way of complimenting your post. Yes, yes, I know I'm a bit obscure, and being a non-native speaker you probably missed that completley. My apologies, good sir.
 
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As I said earlier, shrinking the earths mass to the radius of about .823 cm will make it a black hole.

Paul

:) :) :)

About 2.7km for the sun.
 
As I said earlier, shrinking the earths mass to the radius of about .823 cm will make it a black hole.

Is there a formula you used to know that?

How is such a formula figured out? Has it ever been tested? Or is this hypothetical?
 
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