Jeremy Corbyn might actually win?

[The Atheist]

Could learn a lot from those Athenians.

Probably works ok when you have 500 people who can understand the policies.

Hey! Could work well in USA!

(we've already been down the referendum-stained path of government by the people)

 

[caveman1917]

I don't have the time to get up to speed on all the things I'd be offered the chance to vote on.

And?

I'd rather get somebody who broadly represents where I'm coming from, but does have the time, to stand in for me.

You mean like a friend or family member? If we translate the Athenian thing to the current day I don't see why you couldn't give a friend or family member your "password" to vote for you on things you don't have the time or will to get up to speed on.

 

[caveman1917]

You could if you lived in a society where only about ten percent of male residents were enfranchised citizens.

"You could learn a lot from Einstein."
"You could if you are a womanizer."

 

[caveman1917]

Probably works ok when you have 500 people who can understand the policies.

That's why the people in Athens chose their officials randomly, so that everyone would get acquainted with these matters. Also, one can seriously question the democratic content of policies, that govern peoples' lives, when only 500 of those people can actually understand them in the first place.

 

[shuttlt]

You mean like a friend or family member? If we translate the Athenian thing to the current day I don't see why you couldn't give a friend or family member your "password" to vote for you on things you don't have the time or will to get up to speed on.

Why do you think the rest of my family has nothing better to do either? There were 188 divisions last year. I guess lots of MPs don't turn out to anything like that number... but then you have the debates on what's going to be voted on. If I was going to actually take that seriously I'd have to quit my job. Or is the idea that we'd just shoot from the hip and vote based on like a single paragraph executive summary or something?

 

[shuttlt]

That's why the people in Athens chose their officials randomly, so that everyone would get acquainted with these matters. Also, one can seriously question the democratic content of policies, that govern peoples' lives, when only 500 of those people can actually understand them in the first place.

That solution doesn't sound like it scales.

 

[Craig B]

That's why the people in Athens chose their officials randomly, so that everyone would get acquainted with these matters. Also, one can seriously question the democratic content of policies, that govern peoples' lives, when only 500 of those people can actually understand them in the first place.

Isn't my observation about the small size of the Athenian electorate relevant to that? What you are describing works when only 500 people are involved. When millions are involved random sortition is less appropriate. "Everyone" doesn't get acquainted with these matters in a larger civic body.

 

[caveman1917]

Why do you think the rest of my family has nothing better to do either?

If you and your family are so adamant about giving your ability to vote on policy away to a random guy who claims to be "like, such a representation of you" then I don't see why you couldn't, it's not qualitatively different from giving it to a family member after all.

The question is rather, why do you want to impose that on other people?

There were 188 divisions last year. I guess lots of MPs don't turn out to anything like that number... but then you have the debates on what's going to be voted on. If I was going to actually take that seriously I'd have to quit my job. Or is the idea that we'd just shoot from the hip and vote based on like a single paragraph executive summary or something?

I don't know what people would do with their votes. Some might want to give that ability to vote away to someone else - either someone they know or don't know personally, some might use it only on topics that interest them, some might not use it at all, some would "shoot from the hip", some would only vote on things that bothered them, ...

 

[caveman1917]

That solution doesn't sound like it scales.

I never claimed it does.

 

[caveman1917]

Isn't my observation about the small size of the Athenian electorate relevant to that? What you are describing works when only 500 people are involved. When millions are involved random sortition is less appropriate. "Everyone" doesn't get acquainted with these matters in a larger civic body.

It would be if I claimed that random sortition gets everyone acquainted with these matters in a larger civic body. Which, just for the heck of it, I'm going to claim anyway by pointing out that, for example, neighbourhood councils with random sortition would have comparable numbers to Athens.

 

[shuttlt]

If you and your family are so adamant about giving your ability to vote on policy away to a random guy who claims to be "like, such a representation of you" then I don't see why you couldn't, it's not qualitatively different from giving it to a family member after all.

The question is rather, why do you want to impose that on other people?

Who is imposing it on people? If one looked, I expect it would be possible to find people who would volunteer for this kind of thing.

 

[caveman1917]

Who is imposing it on people?

Representative democracy as a system of government.

If one looked, I expect it would be possible to find people who would volunteer for this kind of thing.

Examples abound.

 

[trustbutverify]

Let's not forget that that was how Athenian democracy worked as well. They didn't vote for people who they then assumed to somehow embody a representation of themselves in the political arena, they just voted for the policies. Any officials that were necessary were chosen randomly. Those who did have to make executive decisions, rather than being more like clerks, were afterwards subjected to an examination of their actions.

Could learn a lot from those Athenians.

I hope we don't end up with a set of legislation resembling youtube commentary.

I prefer a benevolent dictatorship based on Forbin's Colossus model.

 

[Craig B]

It would be if I claimed that random sortition gets everyone acquainted with these matters in a larger civic body. Which, just for the heck of it, I'm going to claim anyway by pointing out that, for example, neighbourhood councils with random sortition would have comparable numbers to Athens.

Do you have examples of such councils in action? And do they have powers and responsibilities equivalent to declaring war on Sparta?

 

[Darat]

Back to a fella called Corbyn listened to him on Question time and he seemed quite able to handle the political hot potato issues (e.g. immigration) without coming across as "out of touch" or "unrealistic" - both terms I've heard describe his views on immigration and asylum. And one thing I think he did well was to ensure that those two strands are viewed as different issues, which they are.

 

[Francesca R]

As far as I know being "out of touch" on immigration today means thinking it is a good thing and anything other than wanting it to decrease.

 

[caveman1917]

6 Links Jeremy Corbyn Doesn’t Want You to Know About

How the mighty have fallen. Just a few weeks ago, Stalinist firebrand, Jeremy Corbyn, was the Golden Boy of the British Left.

But now, Corbyn is coming under fire for his alleged links to extremists and racists.

 

[GlennB]

6 Links Jeremy Corbyn Doesn’t Want You to Know About

The yak business came as quite a shock!

In other news - Louise Mensch shoots herself in the foot trying to discredit Corbyn

 

[The Atheist]

6 Links Jeremy Corbyn Doesn’t Want You to Know About

That's very good!

 

[GlennB]

Looks like my expat application to vote has been successful. It also seems that the register is being circulated among candidates for use in electioneering emails, which seems reasonable (I don't recall any questions about withholding details, but might have missed them)

So far, several days after registration - two emails from leadership candidates (Kendall and Corbyn) and two from deputy leader candidates (Watson and Creasy).

Makes you wonder how clued-up the other candidates are, or whether there are dodgy dealing happening with the register of voters (which I seriously doubt).