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Jeremy Bamber

LondonJohn said:
Yet.... zero evidence of powder burns or tattooing were found anywhere around her entry wounds. And that would be inconceivable from such a close-up shot from a .22 rifle with no modifier attached.

Oh, and we also have the (inconvenient, for Jeremy) trial evidence that there was no powder residue anywhere on Sheila's hands, arms or nightdress: extremely unlikely at best, impossible at worst, for someone who'd just fired numerous rounds from a breech-loading rifle, reloading midway through.
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This is important. Anyone who has put a couple of magazines through a semi automatic rifle and done a reload would not just have 'traces' of powder on their hands and arms, it would be on their face and hair in more than just 'traces'.
 
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Second, we are not talking about a 9 mm automatic pistol but a rifle. My .22 Browning is recoil action but I do not believe that most .22 rifles are. I suspect that they are gas action which will further reduce unspent powder. My pistol however is much cleaner even when firing 50 rounds than my .45 is with a single magazine. More of it however seems to collect inside the weapon, likely the results of the gasses not being expelled with much force.
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A bit late but the vast majority of .22 semi auto rifles in the UK are blowback, they are hnot locking breech.
Why would you need a locking brecch with a .22lr?

Ruger tends to be the most common. I had a Ruger Sporter with a 10 round magazine when I was still field shooting.

Pupm shotguns are limited to 2 rounds unless held on a firearms certificate and a need would have to be shown to own one.

I have only rarely come across pump guns when I have been field shooting or even shooting clays.

I have never seen a .410 pump shotgun.

As for why someone would choose a silenced semi auto rifle over a 12 gauge shotgun to commit mass murder?

I think that is obvious.

Also the the efficiency on a .22 as a killer weapon

Beretta Model 71 pistol

 
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Again

TomG said:
I don't agree. First of all the anschutz 0.22 rifle with it's subsonic bullets were only designed to "have stopping power" for vermin. It's obvious that it took multiple shots to dispatch the twins as well as the adults; therefore the gun was woefully inefficient as killing weapon.
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Israeli special forces disagree. .22lr is their ammunition of choice.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
This is important. Anyone who has put a couple of magazines through a semi automatic rifle and done a reload would not just have 'traces' of powder on their hands and arms, it would be on their face and hair in more than just 'traces'.
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True, and I've had burns from weapons fired close to me. A contact gunshot wound is pretty distinctive.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
A bit late but the vast majority of .22 semi auto rifles in the UK are blowback, they are hnot locking breech.
Why would you need a locking brecch with a .22lr?

Ruger tends to be the most common. I had a Ruger Sporter with a 10 round magazine when I was still field shooting.

Pupm shotguns are limited to 2 rounds unless held on a firearms certificate and a need would have to be shown to own one.

I have only rarely come across pump guns when I have been field shooting or even shooting clays.

I have never seen a .410 pump shotgun.

As for why someone would choose a silenced semi auto rifle over a 12 gauge shotgun to commit mass murder?

I think that is obvious.

Also the the efficiency on a .22 as a killer weapon

Beretta Model 71 pistol

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The rifle Bamber used in his murders was an Anschütz 525; very accurate for a SA, a trifle heavy for a .22 at around four kilos, but rugged and reliable.
Peculiar magazine though, and delicate, spares were expensive too.

ETA: pump .410s are uncommon outside the USA, and not common there. I've actually known more SA .410s than pumps in UK/I.
 
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catsmate said:
Silenced semi-auto .22 pistols were the tools of choice for many professionals; discreet and effective with multiple rapid shots on target.
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Indeed


I used my Ruger for rabbits.

There are a couple of farms near the village where I grew up that have a railway running through them, the embankments are alive with the things.
At dusk a suppressed .22 was the ideal weapon, you could shoot away without startling them at all. It had a longer range than an air rifle which would be the usual weapon of choice.
 
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D Kimberley Molina 1, Michael Martinez, James Garcia, Vincent J M DiMaio: explained in 2007 for "experts" the likelihood of GSR being on deceased person's hands who shot themselves. Some of the best in the world listed there.

If I recall the attorney acting name correctly as Ashby, he will be well aware of that paper and also another published paper which in part dealt with the suicide of Robin Bain after skeptics had tittered on for years about the impossibility of Robin Bain shooting himself because he "couldn't" reach the trigger - only to see it demonstrated at trial.
If there is any evidence of GSR on Sheila's clothing that would still be consistent with suicide, though unfortunately I doubt investigating police had much of a clue about it and possibly no tests were done.
There are 2 tricks for novices to this case, take a broom stick put a nail in it at the correct distance from one end lie on the floor and see with the rifle (to the left from memory depending on the which side the wounds were on, with the right hand on the "barrel" and the left reaching to the trigger. Having absorbed that and using the same length model swing it overhead into a lower recessed wall and find that the height of the arc does not allow a "scratch" to be made right from the edge.
Lastly dig out mike g's now famous reconstruction of the stairs to help understand the evidence that shows Nevil was turned away on the stairs.
I have every confidence that the Bamber case may finally crack this time not least because of the counsel acting and his experience in MOJs, but also because forensic science around suicides is far better now (the paper below is 2007). Any withheld evidence that favours Jeremy re the phone calls and any activity in the house after the cordons were in place increases the chances of success along with the science once rejected by either the CCRC or COA, and now expanded upon by 30 years of progress in that area.
As a matter of interest one of the co-authors in the later published paper mentioned above, an English woman living in NZ at the time was somewhat stunned when on a online forum running at the time in NZ I invited participants to do the standing with left foot on a chair routine, rifle barrel in right hand, head tilted left and finger on the left hand easily able to reach the trigger as a demonstration of Robin's ability to have shot himself. Anyway she accomplished a rare feat in co-authoring a paper with Vincent.
The first time I met Joe Karam (after the acquittal of David Bain) when he came to the house an immediate question was where was my broom. I actually had brought a length of 1" dowel which I cut to the right length then put a nail positioned as the trigger at the right measure. As that was a case where the silencer was still on the barrel much to the chortles of the sceptics.
Some years after DB's acquittal a NZ man who was a scientist David Giles blew up crime scene photos of Robin's hands and saw what appeared to GSR. The GSR was in a arc consistent with a curve in the magazine and consistent with loading with a thumb. The very good forensic pathologist in that case who said the famous words regarding evidence which he recorded "if it was there it is in the report" or similar, said after the trial that the alleged GSR mark was not present at autopsy which was some 14 hours or so after TOD.
Ashby will have gone over the autopsy reports and found them wanting. Immediate attention to core body temperatures of the deceased and ambient temperature may in the fullness of time, if the conviction is quashed show, that Jeremy would never have been charged if proper crime scene protocols were followed - like get the FP inside as quickly as possible and plod out.
Lastly on the normal police/Crown waffle about all the processes that the case had been through and upheld, a reminder that one of NZ's most significant MOJs followed 2 trials with guilty verdicts and had the old "re-searches" that found evidence a bullet case that had not been manufactured at the time of the murders.
I would be not be surprised if the English woman I mentioned above had not been approached to help the defence in Bamber - she's got the creds.
Robin Bain could not have shot himself and either could have Sheila. Sure.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17721163/



"Since only 50% of cases where the person is known to have fired a weapon immediately prior to death were positive for GSR by SEM-EDX, this test should not be relied upon to determine whether a deceased individual has discharged a firearm. Furthermore, in only 18% of cases was a discernible pattern present indicating how the firearm was held. The low sensitivity, along with the low percentage of cases with a discernible pattern, limits the usefulness of GSR test results by SEM-EDX in differentiating self-inflicted from non-self-inflicted wounds."
 
While stippling was a hopeful start it also doesn't make the cut if you think about the barrel right against the skin which seems the most common for suicide I remember from some research, sometime - but not universal. There have even been examples of suicide gunshot wounds to the rear of the head.

"If the muzzle of the gun is in contact with the skin, these substances may be deposited within the wound or, if the muzzle is in very close proximity to the skin, around the entrance wound. ... The presence of stippling indicates that the muzzle of the gun was within 2 feet of the victim's body when it was discharged."
 
Fixit said:
"Since only 50% of cases where the person is known to have fired a weapon immediately prior to death were positive for GSR by SEM-EDX, this test should not be relied upon to determine whether a deceased individual has discharged a firearm. Furthermore, in only 18% of cases was a discernible pattern present indicating how the firearm was held. The low sensitivity, along with the low percentage of cases with a discernible pattern, limits the usefulness of GSR test results by SEM-EDX in differentiating self-inflicted from non-self-inflicted wounds."
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There is a difference between the usual coupe of shots fired in a murder or suicide and 25 rounds in quick succession through a semi auto rifle.
 
catsmate said:
The rifle Bamber used in his murders was an Anschütz 525; very accurate for a SA, a trifle heavy for a .22 at around four kilos, but rugged and reliable.
Peculiar magazine though, and delicate, spares were expensive too.
.
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They're not actually made by anschutz they're made by Marocchi.
Spare mags were around £30 each.
Not as reliable or accurate as a Ruger 10/22 though but fairly cheap second hand.

Like any blowback semi-auto they are 'dirty' with the mechanism opening while there is still considerable pressure in the cylinder compared to locked breech weapons.
 
Fixit said:
While stippling was a hopeful start it also doesn't make the cut if you think about the barrel right against the skin which seems the most common for suicide I remember from some research, sometime - but not universal. There have even been examples of suicide gunshot wounds to the rear of the head.

"If the muzzle of the gun is in contact with the skin, these substances may be deposited within the wound or, if the muzzle is in very close proximity to the skin, around the entrance wound. ... The presence of stippling indicates that the muzzle of the gun was within 2 feet of the victim's body when it was discharged."
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But in this specific instance, 1) Caffell's entry wounds were in the underside of her chin, pointing up and back (wrt a standing posture), 2) they were inflicted by a long-barrel rifle, and 3) Sheila's height was (IIRC) 5'6" or 5'7".

And all of those things, taken together, mean that in order for Sheila to have pulled the trigger and fired those shots, the muzzle would by definition have had to be either pressed right up against the underside of her chin, or at the very most a few cm away from the underside of her chin.

So....
 
LondonJohn said:
But in this specific instance, 1) Caffell's entry wounds were in the underside of her chin, pointing up and back (wrt a standing posture), 2) they were inflicted by a long-barrel rifle, and 3) Sheila's height was (IIRC) 5'6" or 5'7".

And all of those things, taken together, mean that in order for Sheila to have pulled the trigger and fired those shots, the muzzle would by definition have had to be either pressed right up against the underside of her chin, or at the very most a few cm away from the underside of her chin.

So....
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I know where the wounds were. You made a statement that is inconsistent with the evidence and now you are describing where the muzzle would have to be which is where I said pointing out why there was no stippling. The lack of stippling had an obvious reason, contact wound shots. Why they were contact more that likely was influenced by the somewhat difficulty of the position and that contact is more common in suicide.
Before you go off track again:
"More than 1 gunshot injury was found in 5.6% of the suicides (maximum 5 gunshots) and in 53.9% of the homicides (maximum 23 gunshots). The suicidal gunshots were fired from contact or near contact range in 89% while this was the case in only 7.5% of the homicides."
These will all be things covered more than likely for the first time in this case by the CCRC and COA. If the Vincent, Cave or Molina(?) published paper from around 2012 or 2013 has been used it is probable that Rowena Cave has had input and all this stuff was studied by her and known by Vincent for decades. I was asked for the details of it around 2016 on another site by someone with a primary role in the application.
That 7.5% figure of contact or near contact shots in homicides compared to suicides is another compelling factor in Jeremy's probable innocence.
 
Colin Stagg got off his murder charge in the Jill Dando case on the grounds the gunpowder traces on his clothes "could have got there by chance". Since Bamber's latest application appears to be based, according to Fixit on the following:

"Since only 50% of cases where the person is known to have fired a weapon immediately prior to death were positive for GSR by SEM-EDX, this test should not be relied upon to determine whether a deceased individual has discharged a firearm. Furthermore, in only 18% of cases was a discernible pattern present indicating how the firearm was held. The low sensitivity, along with the low percentage of cases with a discernible pattern, limits the usefulness of GSR test results by SEM-EDX in differentiating self-inflicted from non-self-inflicted wounds."
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see above.

This seems to be a tortuous way of saying just because Sheila did not show gun powder residues on her person, there is a 50% chance she would not have.

Unfortunately, law is based on crude evidence and not on 'academic theory', however persuasive it might be.
 
Seems to me the 50% detection figure on "people known to have fired a gun" is not a useful statistic for a person proposed to have fired tens of rounds from a blowback operated rifle.
 
Yes, essentially a 'blowback' operated weapon has a bolt held closed by spring pressure rather than a locked breech.
It relies on the force of the gas in the chamber to literally 'blow' the bolt open agains the spring pressure. They are relatively 'dirty' weapons.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Yes, essentially a 'blowback' operated weapon has a bolt held closed by spring pressure rather than a locked breech.
It relies on the force of the gas in the chamber to literally 'blow' the bolt open agains the spring pressure. They are relatively 'dirty' weapons.
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Yes. And on top of that, spewing a hot spent case spinning out close up to the firer's face and out near the firer's right arm with every shot fired

There's little to no chance that someone firing as many shots as were fired that night could fail to have got powder residue on their hands, arm, neck/face or clothing. So far as I can tell, nobody's suggesting that Sheila Caffell fired all the kill shots at everyone else, then stopped to thoroughly clean the rifle and her hands/arms/face/neck, and wash & dry her nightdress before donning it again (or putting another clean one on).

I also don't think anyone's suggesting that the forensic pathologist in this case didn't do an adequate job of testing Sheila's body and clothing for gunshot residue (it's a very simple test to do via swabs and/or sprays).


But..... even if, just for one moment, we suppose either that a) Sheila had indeed cleaned herself and the gun prior to shooting herself, or b) the forensic pathologist was indeed incompetent.... we're still left with the problem of the lack of stippling/tattooing/burns round the under-chin entrance wounds. And we're still left with the (unchallenged, IIRC) professional opinion that the blood-flow patterns indicate Sheila was in a seated or semi-recumbent position when her wounds were inflicted. From the position of her body and the gun when she was found, this would effectively be an impossibility.

There's really only one reasonable conclusion to be drawn wrt Sheila, her body/clothing and her injuries: *someone* - who wasn't her - shot her twice under her chin as she sat or slumped against either the headboard of the bed or against the side of the bed. That person then moved her body into the prone upward-facing position in which it was found, and placed the rifle and the bible strategically across her body.
 
There is no problem with the stippling, so "we" don't have to "suppose" anything:

"If the muzzle of the gun is in contact with the skin, these substances may be deposited within the wound or, if the muzzle is in very close proximity to the skin, around the entrance wound. ... The presence of stippling indicates that the muzzle of the gun was within 2 feet of the victim's body when it was discharged."

The point you make about stippling is wrong.
To move to whether suicide was possible and consistent with the wounds to the body I gather you did the test I suggested and agree that it is?

"Delay in obtaining samples, movement of bodies or objects, or washing of the body prior to autopsy will diminish or destroy gunshot residues. (Molina et al, 2007) A rapid loss in numbers of GSR particles occurs from 1 to 3 hours post firearm discharge, though maximum recovery times of 1 to 48 hours have been reported. (Dalby et al, 2010). Detectable GSR particles may be identified 5 days after firearm discharge (Blakey et al, 2018)"

One of the obvious situations in this case is that police considered it to be murder/suicide that may have inhibited the collection of evidence, also the experience of staff might be a question, evidence gathering, handling and so on - fortunately the hard fact around Sheila and Nevil's deaths, wound sites etc. tell their own story.

I think to be fair to Ashby and his successes so far, the amount of time the application took to be put together and the personnel thought to be involved they should be given credit for having crossed all the bridges required, including the imaginary ones.
 
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