Merged Jeffrey MacDonald did it. He really did.

Status
Not open for further replies.
Henri McPhee said:
It's not my opinion. Murtagh broke the Brady law on the disclosure of exculpatory evidence to the defense. Judge Dupree had a bit to say about this matter at the 1979 trial, though he didn't mean it in practice.
Click to expand...

Liar. You typed: "I speak only as to facts and not to opinions or beliefs" (bolding mine), in the next sentence you begin with: "Personally, I think..." That makes the first statement a Lie.

Liar. You typed the word "illegally" in front of "withheld evidence" when time and time again it's been pointed out to you that the legal determination was not that at all.

You can holler about the illegality of fibers not sourced until the cows come home, but Macdonald's disposal of the clothes and toys and possessions of the people he savagely murdered made the comparisons impossible. The army didn't throw the stuff out, nor did the FBI or CID or MI5 or Mossad - Jeffrey Macdonald did.
 
Serial Fabricator

DESMIRELLE: Nice job of using the landlord's own words against him. Not only is he a serial fabricator, but his arguments lack context. No forensics expert on the planet would conclude that unsourced trace evidence links a specific individual to a crime scene and/or murder. The CID/FBI did, however, use SOURCED trace evidence to link inmate to this horrific crime. The sourced evidence culled from inmate's torn/bloody pajama top could have convicted 5 perps.

http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com
 
Fibers with no known source and no explanation are of interest to forensic investigators, even if they don't come with a name tag attached to them.

The pajama top never proved MacDonald did it. This is part of what Fred Bost said about the matter:

CLAIM 9 -- STABBING THRU THE PAJAMA TOP

The government claims that Jeffrey MacDonald forgot he had placed his pajama top on his wife's body and that he later proceeded to stab through it with an ice pick. They say because the pajama top was not perfectly flat on the body, but was in folds, the 48 circular holes in the fabric could be matched to the 21 ice pick wounds in Colette's chest. Officials contended that if a true fight occurred the garment holes would have to be torn and jagged. For the holes to end up "round," officials say, the pajama top would have to be on an unresisting body. It is impossible for scientists to duplicate the fight described by MacDonald, so the government contention remains unproven.

The government's argument can be stolen by the defense. According to MacDonald, he was unconscious for awhile in the hallway. No tears in fabric would result if he were attacked at that time with an ice pick. An unknown number of thrusts through the pajama top twisted around his wrists could have produced 48 holes. Since the ice pick wounds in both Colette and Kristen were for the most part superficial, most of the thrusts into MacDonald's pajama top might have been specifically aimed at the garment and equally hesitant. If so, they would not have penetrated fully through the twisted cloth. Other thrusts might have been up to the hilt, penetrating flesh. MacDonald's wounds were never probed for depth. Wounds that did result, because they weren't resisted, could have ended up close together as a result of repetitious thrusts into the unresisting body -- something like the four curiously close wounds he suffered on his chest (SHORT #37).

Such a thought is merely conjecture, but so is the "physical proof" claimed by the government. Two FBI laboratory technicians folded and manipulated MacDonald's pajama top so that its 48 ice pick holes lined up with the 21 ice pick wounds in Colette's chest. This was done with the pajama top configured roughly in the position in which it was photographed on her body. That is the extent of the proof.
Click to expand...
 
Henri
If Colette, the unborn son, Kim and Kris weren't killed, the second paragraph from your 'clip and paste' would be funny. It suggests that four men can't kill an unconscious one, but they can kill the woman and children, two of whom (Colette & Kris) put up fights. So now we have hippies messing with Mac's pajama top while Mac is unconscious? But they didn't search the house and find Mac's illegal stash of drugs and syringes?

You and whoever wrote that have no real understanding of the human mind. Or the evidence, for that matter.
 
Last edited:
Reaching

CLAIM: Fibers with no known source and no explanation are of interest to forensic investigators...

RESPONSE: Interest? Yes. Direct link to a specific suspect? No.

CLAIM: The pajama top never proved MacDonald did it.

RESPONSE: The CID, FBI, DOJ, and the 1979 jury disagree.

CLAIM: This is part of what Fred Bost said about the matter.

RESPONSE: Fred's claims have been challenged, and in most instances, debunked by anyone with a working knowledge of the facts in this case.

CLAIM: It is impossible for scientists to duplicate the fight described by MacDonald, so the government contention remains unproven.

RESPONSE: Considering that the CID, FBI, DOJ, and 1979 jury do not believe that inmate fought with mythical home invaders, Bost's contention is moot.

CLAIM: Two FBI laboratory technicians folded and manipulated MacDonald's pajama top so that its 48 ice pick holes lined up with the 21 ice pick wounds in Colette's chest. This was done with the pajama top configured roughly in the position in which it was photographed on her body. That is the extent of the proof.

RESPONSE: This kind of argument was typical of how Fred presented the concrete data in this case. Fred purposely skirts around the following facts.

- All of the ice pick holes in Colette's pajama top were perfectly round

- The pathologist reported that Colette's body was inert when penetrated with the ice pick

- The pathologist also reported that all of the stab wounds on Colette's body were inflicted in a perpendicular manner

- No hole in inmate's pajama top corresponded with his lone serious stab wound

- None of the stab wounds found on Colette's chest/neck were of the slashing variety

- Shirley Green not only discovered a singular hole/wound pattern, she was able to duplicate that pattern using 3 different techniques

- The simple fact is that a pattern either exists or it doesn't

http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com
 
exactly JTF - one cannot "force" a pattern to exist it is either there or it is not there....

in this case the pattern of wholes in the pj top are an exact match to the pattern of the stab wounds in Colette's chest. The pattern EXISTS and shows plainly that inmate stabbed Colette through his pj top. I am certain it was in an attempt to explain her blood on his pj top, and that he didn't realize that one could determine if the blood was there before the tears!
 
byn63 said:
exactly JTF - one cannot "force" a pattern to exist it is either there or it is not there....

in this case the pattern of wholes in the pj top are an exact match to the pattern of the stab wounds in Colette's chest. The pattern EXISTS and shows plainly that inmate stabbed Colette through his pj top. I am certain it was in an attempt to explain her blood on his pj top, and that he didn't realize that one could determine if the blood was there before the tears!
Click to expand...

This is what Dr. Thornton thought about that matter at the 1979 trial:

Q Let me turn now, if I may, to the question of the pajama top reconstruction experiment to which Ms. Green testified. Have you -- you told us, of course, that you have read the testimony of Ms. Shirley Green; is that right?
A I read a portion of it, and I heard a portion of it on the second day of her testimony.
Q Let me just remove this exhibit. This is not germane to what we are talking about. In addition to reading her testimony, you also heard some of her testimony personally; am I correct in that regard?
A Yes.
Q And you heard her describe what she did in terms of putting probes through the holes in the pajama top into 48 holes and fitting them into 21 holes in a replica of what was meant to be a torso or display of the torso of Mrs. MacDonald. You heard that; did you not?
A I don't recall the torso being --
Q (Interposing) You are quite right -- a pattern resembling the pattern that she said existed in the torso of Mrs. MacDonald.
A That's correct.
Q Is it possible, based upon your knowledge, information, and training, for Ms. Green, using the information that she had, to have made the reconstruction of the pajama top as she did? Is it possible for her to have done that and done it correctly -- moving the 48 holes into 21?
A No.
Click to expand...
 
what Dr Thorton said is of no relevance. He is the "expert" who came up with the ham on the sled experiment which didn't even take half the parameters into account when designing his ridiculous experiment.

FACT is FACT henri and the FACT is that you cannot force a pattern to exist. It either exists or it does not exist. period.
 
byn63 said:
what Dr Thorton said is of no relevance. He is the "expert" who came up with the ham on the sled experiment which didn't even take half the parameters into account when designing his ridiculous experiment.

FACT is FACT henri and the FACT is that you cannot force a pattern to exist. It either exists or it does not exist. period.
Click to expand...

byn, you should know better than to bother Henri with facts. He's got his opinions and random internet postings to back him up! Facts are nothing compared to those two! (No charge for the sarcasm, you know that's free.)
 
Circular Logic

According to the Landlord of MacFantasy Island, the government never proved that Colette was transported in the blue bedsheet, and that John Thornton's forensic analysis in this case is beyond dispute. This is the same John Thornton that agreed with Paul Stombaugh's conclusions that the right pajama cuff from inmate's pajama top transferred Colette's blood to the same blue bedsheet in two places. These two places were designated by Stombaugh as Areas A and B.

The same John Thornton also agreed with Stombaugh's conclusion that the left pajama cuff from Colette's pajama top transferred her own blood to that same blue bedsheet. Stombaugh designated this bloody transfer stain as Area F. These 3 bloody fabric impressions were a major part of the government's proof that inmate transported Colette in that same bedsheet. So, if one adheres to the landlord's circular logic, it would appear that Thornton helped the government to prove that inmate carried Colette's bloody body in that bedsheet.

http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com
 
Last edited:
byn63 said:
what Dr Thorton said is of no relevance. He is the "expert" who came up with the ham on the sled experiment which didn't even take half the parameters into account when designing his ridiculous experiment.

FACT is FACT henri and the FACT is that you cannot force a pattern to exist. It either exists or it does not exist. period.
Click to expand...

Dr Thornton said somewhere that Shirley Green had said somewhere that an entrance hole was in fact an exit hole, which is a bit too technical for me, but which made the whole pajama folding experiment conceptually unsound.

The matter was discussed in a legal document in about 2006:

www.themacdonaldcase.org/Images/Macdonald_Reply_to_Govt_Response.pdf

The government begins its recitation of the material evidence by stating that “MacDonald’s
pajama top was, perhaps the single most inculpatory piece of evidence.” This is a critical admission,
because a careful and fair analysis of the pajama top evidence reveals that it provides no reliable proof of
MacDonald’s guilt.

First in this regard, the government claims that when a forensic technician folded the
pajama top (which had 48 puncture holes in it) in the same manner in which it had been found on Colette
MacDonald’s body, whose chest contained 21 puncture holes, and inserted 21 probes in the garment’s 48
puncture holes, they aligned in a pattern matching the pattern of the 21 puncture wounds on Colette’s
chest, proving that MacDonald had placed the pajama top on Colette’s chest and then stabbed her through
it.

Edited by Agatha: 
Trimmed for rule 4
Click to expand...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
KISS

Too technical for ya, eh? Rather than rely on the skewed logic of a defense brief, the simple fact is that by the time Paul Stombaugh examined inmate's pajama top (e.g., 1971) the excessive handling of the garment made it impossible to determine whether the holes were exit or entrance holes. The yarns in each hole had returned to their original positions, but Stombaugh nor any other forensic examiner could determine the original positioning of the yarns.

http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com
 
Last edited:
Read It And Weep

The following was culled from Stombaugh's report to the CID in 1971.

The apparent frequent handling of speciman's Q7, Q9, and Q12 has caused the yarns surrounding the holes to return, for the most part, to their original positions thus preventing a definite conclusion to be made as to whether each hole is an "entry" or "exit" hole.

http://www.crimearchives.net/1979_macdonald/fbi/1971-07-02_fbi_stombaugh.html

It's important to note that John Thornton did not disagree with Stombaugh's contention that the yarns returned to their original positions.

http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com
 
Last edited:
That pajama folding experiment was fabricated and manufactured so-called evidence by the FBI lab, and I'm not the only person who thinks that.
 
Yes, You Are The Only One

CLAIM: That pajama folding experiment was fabricated and manufactured so-called evidence by the FBI lab, and I'm not the only person who thinks that.

You're the only person that has publicly claimed that the Pajama Top Theory was fabricated, and to be blunt, your opinion is worthless. The only opinions that really matter are the ones put forth by the CID, FBI, DOJ, the Kassab family, Judge Dupree, Judge Fox, the 4th Circuit Court, and the 1979 jury.

http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com
 
This matter of entrance holes and exit holes was discussed at the 1979 trial with Segal and Shirley Green of the FBI. The forensic significance of this is that it put Jeffrey MacDonald in prison for the rest of his life on false evidence. It was too technical for an average jury and the 'in bed with the prosecution' judges. It was not scientifically correct. It did not include Colette's pajama top.

http://www.thejeffreymacdonaldcase.com/html/tt-1979-08-10-green.html

Segal: But he also indicated there were possibly five exit holes, but he was not absolutely sure about it?

Shirley Green: It seems like he said there were possibly five exit and six entrance holes or vice-versa.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
More from that cross -examination of Shirley Green of the FBI by Segal:

Q My question is that if you had to try to maneuver this fabric and line up the holes and all, if you also had to put in the two knife holes -- put them in and hold them in place -- have you any way of telling us today, based upon any experiment or work you did, that you could in fact do that?
A I have no idea. I haven't done it.
Q That's all I wanted to ask you. The second thing, in the same regard now, is that you don't have any idea -- do you -- whether you could in fact put 48 probes through 21 holes in the pajama top if you also had to put Colette's pink pajama top underneath it and accommodate those holes?

Edited by Agatha: 
Trimmed for rule 4
Click to expand...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
the entire "entrance hole" and "exit hole" argument put forth by certain trolls is nothing more than BS, nonsense, and red herring, whichever term one prefers.

The FACT is that YOU CANNOT FORCE A PATTERN TO EXIST, IT EITHER EXISTS OR IT DOES NOT, PERIOD! In this case, the pattern exists the 48 holes line up to match the holes in Colette's chest. FACT.
 
Wrong Again

CLAIM: This matter of entrance holes and exit holes was discussed at the 1979 trial with Segal and Shirley Green of the FBI.

RESPONSE: Yeah, but Green never looked at the 48 holes to determine whether they were exit or entrance holes. That was part of Stombaugh's analysis in 1971, analysis I included in my prior post.

CLAIM: It was not scientifically correct. It did not include Colette's pajama top.

RESPONSE: You are not a forensic examiner, so your opinion is meaningless. Colette's pajama top was most certainly a part of the Pajama Top Theory. As I mentioned in a prior post, all of the holes in Colette's pajama top were perfectly round and the pathologist reported that her body was inert when stabbed with the ice pick.

http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom