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Merged Jeff Farrer Reshashes Jones's nonsense

The guy's obviously a lizard worshipping, unemployed, holohoaxer, who has no relevant experience and hasn't even bothered to do any research.
 
Well... technically... I have to agree... the whole "first time in history" canard defaults to pretty much everything being a hoax.
 
I think the best part was at the end when he says he wants people replicating their study. Funny enough people have asked to do just that and the good Doctor Jones has refused to share his samples.

I wonder why? Just asking questions.
 
Replication won't prove anything, just like Harrit, Jones et al can't prove anything with their data. Why is this so hard for everyone to understand?
 
A competent study (i.e., including x-ray diffraction to look at the specific species of iron, iron oxide, aluminum & aliminum oxide, and anaerobic ignition) will tell if there really is any thermite in the samples.

I am curious why Ferrar says that standard office fires will only get up to about "half of 1100°C".

The folks at Manchester Fire Engineering disagree:

fig1.gif



The number he is quoting is true for an external fire (see BSEN1991 "external fire" - purple line - in graph above), but not for one contained as in the rubble pile.


And standard fire curves:

parametricFireCurves.gif


show 1100°C being reached after about 3 hours of burning. How many weeks did those fires burn underground? 10 weeks? 15?

This data shows a consistent pattern of the temp of large steel I-beams reaching about 1050°C after 2 hours, and still rising...

Finally, all of the curves show the higher the fuel loads, the higher the max temperatures. Using Bazant's compaction ratio of 0.2 gives, as a first order estimate, a fuel area density in the rubble pile 5x greater than in the precollapse building.

temperatureTimeCurves.gif



I seriously doubt that even the highest fuel load scenario in the tests reported above had the equivalent of five floors worth of office contents jammed into one floor.
 
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I think the best part was at the end when he says he wants people replicating their study. Funny enough people have asked to do just that and the good Doctor Jones has refused to share his samples.

I wonder why? Just asking questions.

Probably still ticked off that we deactivated the samples he sent to that French guy.:D
 
With Jones & Farrer being as close collaborators, I wonder if Jones thinks the same thing: that the ~1100C temps are some deep mystery that needs to be explained by some extraordinary agent.
 
With Jones & Farrer being as close collaborators, I wonder if Jones thinks the same thing: that the ~1100C temps are some deep mystery that needs to be explained by some extraordinary agent.

Would that extraordinary agent be Agent 86? I think so...:cool:
 
I suppose one would have expected a self-proclaimed "nanothermite scientist" to know at least something about nanothermite...

... but then, silly me, this is the same bunch that gave us the "Truth Movement." :p
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23n0Vr_A1TQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJwE65Y32Y4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8Y4CB2ReUo&feature=related

Jeff Farmer made a very reasonable, thoughtful, and fair presentation of
the WTC dust findings.

He also remained open-minded to other explanations, outside of the strong conclusions reported in the paper he co-authored.

The important point, was that the highly energetic, 'designer' material they found permeating the WTC dust samples
did not behave in a fashion comparable to anything expected to be found inside the WTC.

No one here is debunking his statements.

Ridicule and mockery only reveal how weak your positions are.

MM
 
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The important point, was that the highly energetic,

Less energetic than paper, in fact.

'designer' material they found permeating the WTC dust samples

which shows no particular signs of having been any more designed than, say, paint

did not behave in a fashion comparable to anything expected to be found inside the WTC.

Since conspiracy theorists don't believe in fires, that's hardly surprising.

No one here is debunking his statements.

Repeating that lie won't make it true.

Ridicule and mockery only reveal how weak your positions are.

Ridicule and mockery are the only practical way to relate to habitual liars who evade having to address their opponents' arguments by pretending they don't exist.

Dave
 
...
The important point, was that the highly energetic, 'designer' material they found permeating the WTC dust samples
did not behave in a fashion comparable to anything expected to be found inside the WTC.
...

You are right on several counts, but in different ways than you intended:

1. It was in fact a "designer" material, to the extent that paints are in fact "designed" for specific purposes, and can be used by designers for visual effects.
2. It was in fact "highly energetic", even more so than thermite/thermite/thermate. Well, some of the chips anyway. Others did not react. Others still reacted only mildly. The test results were all over the place, giving strong indications that it was not "designed" with any energetic purposes in mind.
3. It did in fact not behave in a fashion comparable to anything expected by the authors of the study, who expected to find therimte or nano-thermite. They showed all the data that proves it can't even in theory be thermitic, compared it to actual NT and found it to have a drastically differing DCS profile, and had to conclude that it must be something different. That something different they speculated to be the very stuff they just found it was not - a trick of magic.
 
Miragememories said:
"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23n0Vr_A1TQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJwE65Y32Y4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8Y4CB2ReUo&feature=related

Jeff Farmer made a very reasonable, thoughtful, and fair presentation of
the WTC dust findings.

He also remained open-minded to other explanations, outside of the strong conclusions reported in the paper he co-authored.

The important point, was that the highly energetic, 'designer' material they found permeating the WTC dust samples
did not behave in a fashion comparable to anything expected to be found inside the WTC.

No one here is debunking his statements.

Ridicule and mockery only reveal how weak your positions are."
Oystein said:
"You are right on several counts, but in different ways than you intended:

1. It was in fact a "designer" material, to the extent that paints are in fact "designed" for specific purposes, and can be used by designers for visual effects."

Physicist Jeff Farrer:" There were other particles present in the red layer. There were some plate-like particles and those again, were consistent throughout the red layer, throughout all of the samples that we found. Those appeared to have higher aluminum and silicone peaks in their compositional analysis and one of the significant things that we find in the red layer is the fact that these particles that we find in the red layer are..the fact that they are consistent. The fact that they are consistent in shape, in composition, and in size, leads me to believe that these are not naturally occurring materials. The red layer is not a naturally occurring material. Sure you have iron oxide everywhere that you have iron you get an iron oxide. But you don't get them in nice little 100 nanometer rhombohedral shaped particles inside of a very small red layer. By the way, just to give you a reference on the size, these particles that are in the red layer are thousands of times smaller than the width of a human hair. So these are very sophisticated particles of very sophisticated materials. Not materials that we would expect to find in the demolition debris of a building. In order to get that kind of consistency with shape and size and to be that small, these really are sophisticated materials. And probably only developed in a laboratory. They maybe processed outside a laboratory but they are developed in a laboratory."

Oystein said:
"2. It was in fact "highly energetic", even more so than thermite/thermite/thermate. Well, some of the chips anyway. Others did not react. Others still reacted only mildly. The test results were all over the place, giving strong indications that it was not "designed" with any energetic purposes in mind.

3. It did in fact not behave in a fashion comparable to anything expected by the authors of the study, who expected to find therimte or nano-thermite. They showed all the data that proves it can't even in theory be thermitic, compared it to actual NT and found it to have a drastically differing DCS profile, and had to conclude that it must be something different. That something different they speculated to be the very stuff they just found it was not - a trick of magic."

Physicist Jeff Farrer:"Our conclusions were that the red/gray chips are some form of thermite or nano-thermite or an energetic material which is very similar to thermite. It is a very strong conclusion given the data. Now others may say; could it be something else? Certainly. It certainly could be something else.
I am not about to say that we've completely ruled out everything. But, those conclusions we made in the paper are very strong given the data. If there is another possibility, that is something someone can come forward with using the same very stringent scientific method that we used in this paper, and publish that, and I can guarantee they will find that our work is completely reproducible. If you find other red/gray chips, they will look and have the same composition and the same behavior in the calorimeter as the red/gray chips that we found. Now if they come up with different conclusions than we do,
that is their prerogative of course, and I would like to see that. I like to see other people looking at these things because that reproduces our results and it also brings us to a discussion which needs to happen. We need to be talking about this. There needs to be another investigation of the events of that day and that is why I signed the petition at the Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth website."


I think Dr. Farrer makes the better case.

MM
 

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