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James Randi and Objectivism

1) What should be done by sociopaths? The same thing that should be done about everyone else, namely if they apply that malady to force and violate the rights of others, the government will be responsible for stopping them and/or preventing them from such acts. So long as they do not harm others by force, nothing would be done.

And if they use force to try to resist the government using force? Don't we get a Waco situation here?

If a thief or a murderer resists the government's efforts to defend the populace from their use of force, the government may use force as necessary right up to deadly force of the resistors initiate the threat of deadly force against them.

This is a principle unchanged throughout history. It baffles me that anyone would doubt it. The difference here is that Rand has now explained why we are justified in our use of defensive force, i.e. any person who initiates force against another forfeits his right to be free from force against them in defense. In a moral context, you cannot kill someone and then turn around and claim you have a right to your life.

You will note in my quote that the government may not interfere in the life of a sociopath who does not engage in the coercion of others. If he does, his act of force will be treated just like that same act would if committed by others.

The principle of forbidding acts of violence against others for gain applies to all human beings equally now and forever. If you don't like Rand's application of that principle, please name what kind of violence you want to commit against your fellow man that she would prohibit.
 
"just being there means living off of the wildlife and vegetation that was "just there" instead of utilizing the land to produce sustenance, the process of which augments the value of the land that was just there.
It's really laughable the way you make it sound like hunting and gathering is so easy, as though food is just lying about on the ground for stupid and lazy people to pick up without effort. Those peoples who did and still do practice hunting and gathering are utilizing the land to produce sustenance. They add value to the land that is relevant to their needs. Thinking that they have to add value to the land relative to the needs of foreigners in order to justify their existence is terribly short-sighted.

I did not deny that some of the previous inhabitants did create permanent communities and enhance the productiveness of the land.
Again, your ignorance of Native American history is transparently obvious. True hunter/gatherer communities were outnumbered by those who practiced agriculture and lived in permanent settlements. You do realize that "America" refers to two entire continents, yes? There were great cities and great empires to be found in pre-Columbian America. The Mississippian culture spread across most of the eastern and midwestern North American continent and featured large towns and cities with thousands of inhabitants. In Central and South America there were great cities and empires with extensive trade routes. In fact, most of the peoples encountered by European settlers early on were living in just these sorts of cultures.

It's too bad that Ayn Rand was too arrogant to actually learn anything about Native American culture prior to making such stupidly wrong assertions such as that they didn't have any concept of property and that they didn't live in settled communities, apparently believing that all of the pre-Columbian Americans were some homogenized stereotype, like a dime-store Indian

Killing the peaceable ones or confiscating their land was the same crime it would be against anyone else.
Again, you seem to have an early 20th century Hollywood concept of Native American history. Violence and slaughter was overwhelmingly practiced by foreign invaders moving to push out indigenous populations. Most recorded cases of violence against settlers follows violence by the settlers against indigenous populations.

But when those that did not tolerate the homesteading of unowned land by the settlers raided their homesteads and killed them, it was they who were the criminals and the settler's rights that were violated.
You just won't let go of this "unowned land" meme. Not to mention the Hollywood image of bloodthirsty savages descending on peaceable settlers and slaughtering them without provocation.

Accusing all settlers and justifying all of the previous inhabitants without distinctions based on what they actually did or did not do and on what is or is not property is a form of bigotry as bad as any other.
Right, I'm the bigot for insisting that Native Americans weren't subhumans who didn't deserve prosperity or happiness because they lived like "animals".
 
Before children were able to work in the 19th century to augment their family income, most of them died before adulthood. As soon as the industrial revolution elevated the productivity of parents, child labor began a downward spiral (but not before the politicians grabbed the issue to make their own profit from the kids).
I'd missed this post earlier. It's appalling just how little you know about the history you are referencing.
 
I'd missed this post earlier. It's appalling just how little you know about the history you are referencing.

If one wishes to reform society you'd think they'd at least learn something about the society they live in first.
 
If one wishes to reform society you'd think they'd at least learn something about the society they live in first.

Generally this sort of person doesn't want to reform society, they wish to have the feeling of reforming society. Otherwise, they'd be doing something other than posting in sceptics' forums.

Reforming society would involve difficult work.
 
The trouble with the responses to Hellbound's scenarios is that there seems to be the assumption that when people are presented with the choice of doing something really underhanded or behaving fairly, they believe that people will, by their nature, behave fairly. "What if one town cuts off another to strangle them economically?" Objectivists reply "People aren't like that, and they just won't do it."

I prefer "Can't" to "probably won't". I'd like a world where people wouldn't even have that as a choice, verses a world where they do, but generally choose the high road.
 
Note also that Objectivism condemns the notion of "Utopia."
Of course. Every utopian does. No utopian ever claims that their utopia is a utopia. They think their utopia is realistic and feasible.

They assume that we are claiming that such a society would cause perfection of everything, an ignorant claim if there ever was one.

The best system men could possibly devise could never guarantee perfection, because an essential component of man's nature is volition—the universal capacity to choose at will to be right or wrong.
No utopian ever claims that their utopia is "perfect in every way" -- even if they can't name anything wrong with it -- just that it is "the best system men could possibly devise", it is perfectly in line with "human nature", protects everything they think are "natural rights" and once implemented never needs to be overthrown by something completely different.

So the Objectivist position is that, given the fact some will choose to be irrational, the best system is one that minimizes the ability of men to inflict their irrationality on others by force.
That requires restricting people, while Objectivists want people to have more freedom.
 
The trouble with the responses to Hellbound's scenarios is that there seems to be the assumption that when people are presented with the choice of doing something really underhanded or behaving fairly, they believe that people will, by their nature, behave fairly. "What if one town cuts off another to strangle them economically?" Objectivists reply "People aren't like that, and they just won't do it."

I prefer "Can't" to "probably won't". I'd like a world where people wouldn't even have that as a choice, verses a world where they do, but generally choose the high road.

The problem is even worse than that. Two parties could each think themselves acting fairly and on the high road, and yet still come to blows. This whole notion of "defensive force" doesn't mention that force isn't labeled. Certainly we see the defense argument trotted out, even by both sides in a dispute.

So everyone involved is moral, noble and only using defensive force. But my dog is still dead. I know you claim he was attacking you, but I think he was reacting to your threatening him with that gun on your belt.
 
...snip...

So everyone involved is moral, noble and only using defensive force. But my dog is still dead. I know you claim he was attacking you, but I think he was reacting to your threatening him with that gun on your belt.

Sounds like we could do with an independent organisation tasked with deciding whose case was the strongest against some agreed standards and having the ability to enforce their decision.
 
Sounds like we could do with an independent organisation tasked with deciding whose case was the strongest against some agreed standards and having the ability to enforce their decision.

I used to be that arbitrator for my children. Seemed to work.
 
The problem is even worse than that. Two parties could each think themselves acting fairly and on the high road, and yet still come to blows. This whole notion of "defensive force" doesn't mention that force isn't labeled. Certainly we see the defense argument trotted out, even by both sides in a dispute.

So everyone involved is moral, noble and only using defensive force. But my dog is still dead. I know you claim he was attacking you, but I think he was reacting to your threatening him with that gun on your belt.

I was just defending my belief that all dogs are evil and are spawns of Satan, you wouldn't want to restrict my freedom would you? I think I've goy a few more bullets.
 
The more I read about Ayn Rand's ideas and their followers, the more I feel they're pushing religion, not philosophy ... :boggled:
 
So the Objectivist position is that, given the fact some will choose to be irrational, the best system is one that minimizes the ability of men to inflict their irrationality on others by force.
That requires restricting people, while Objectivists want people to have more freedom.

Objectivists want to restrict people from using force against each other. They want people to have more freedom from force. They do not want people to be free from their restrictions against force, because freedom and force are opposites, and the notion of a "freedom to use force" in the context of political rights is a contradiction in terms. No such right can exist.
 
Objectivists want to restrict people from using force against each other.
And how is this unlike other political philosophies?
They want people to have more freedom from force.
Only from the force of government to tax, it seems.
They do not want people to be free from their restrictions against force, because freedom and force are opposites, and the notion of a "freedom to use force" in the context of political rights is a contradiction in terms. No such right can exist.
What of economic force? People face this every day. Behind economic force lies the threat of violence. Objectivism seeks to preserve the economic freedoms of the very rich, while allowing the objective economic conditions faced by most to be used as a form of force (backed up by threat of violence) to render meaningless all other freedoms.
 
I was just defending my belief that all dogs are evil and are spawns of Satan, you wouldn't want to restrict my freedom would you? I think I've goy a few more bullets.

Acting rationally, and understanding that the rest of the world is crazy, I will sell you those bullets. Would you like some free bore cleaner as well?
 

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