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James Randi and Objectivism

Gord_in_Toronto said:
"Then when you were starving and penniless"? How would that happen while I was living in luxury on a Caribbean island a continent away while my henchmen manned my blockade and were supplied from sources outside the valley?
Again, this is why these scenarios are of no value--they can't be implemented in practice. I mean, the instant your henchmen touch someone outside of your property your entire plan collapses. And again, you're not going to be able to stop people like me, who are used to rugged areas, from getting out.

joesixpack said:
Morality does not equal altruism, at least from my perspective. I don't think anyone else here is making that conflation.
Ah, that'd be confusion on my part--I wasn't speaking clearly. I didn't intend to say that people here had argued that morality=altruism, merely that it's not uncommon in these discussions. Dawkins, for example, has an annoying habbit of equating the two. My statement was more an FYI for the other O'ist here that his argument style isn't going to get him very far, and to illustrate one reason. It wasn't meant to say that anyone here was doing this.

Morality means a code of behavior that is dictated by the social structure and culture which one lives in.
This I will strongly disagree with. Morality is not a social construct, and your definition doesn't actually define anything--it merely says that morality is whatever everyone else decides it is. Which is fine for someone who has no interest in philosophy (9 out of 10 philosophies will agree 99 out of 100 times, after all), but it's completely untennable in a philosophical discussion. It also presupposes that the listener accepts collectivism as a basic premise, because the definition is pretty much nothing BUT collectivism--it leaves NO room for an individual to disagree, or even any criteria by which to evaluate disagreement other than collectivism.

For example, taking your neighbors property because he isn't using it to it's full advantage is immoral by most people's idea of the word, even if to do so would be to grow more food for a starving populace.
I agree it's immoral, but I strongly disagree with your reasoning. It's not wrong merely because the majority think it's wrong, and we both tacitely accept this idea. I mean, the majority of people in the Middle Ages thought torturing a confession out of people was moral. A majority of people in the Middle East think that stoning adulterous women is moral. I doubt you'll agree with either concept, and I know I wouldn't--but my definition of morality (a code of values one uses to guide one's actions) allows me to offer counter-arguments. The definition you presented--that "Morality means a code of behavior that is dictated by the social structure and culture which one lives in"--offers you no such recourse. After all, that social structure and culture supports the stonings and the torture.

Hellbound said:
Actually, the entire subject came up because Rand herself made that comparison, not her detractors. The claim that the taking of the land was a justified act, that is.
Again, I don't think she ever formally wrote an opinion on this--it's mostly a collection of asides in essays on other topics. She hardly gave a full explination of her views, and given that Rand had a tendancy to do that, I'd say that probably means she didn't look into the specifics that closely. Personally, I view this like the homosexuality thing, or her early views of smoking--Rand was a product of her times, and did not fully excape the irrationalism of the day. This may be another example of it.
 
Hellbound said:
It's a small town, the market isn't that big. A new route through maountains isn't cheap.
Now you're just adding ad hoc reasons why my plan won't work. At this point, we've degenerated into "Will not!/Will so!" territory. I really don't think this is a useful line of discussion. I mean, I can counter this with "But let's say I found gold in the mountains, in land I owned, and the company that broke your blockaid would be rich!" It's degenerated into a farce.

Ah, so we don't need rational actors, but emotional ones?
Objectivists=/=Volcans. There's this whole thing in O'ism about how emotions are estimates of our values.

ETA:
If I acted in such a manner, assuming I had rationally assessed the odds and had enough power compared to the town I planned to hold hostage that they could not reasonably beat me, I would not be wrong according to Objectivism.
This is where you, and most critics of O'ism, are fundamentally mistaken. You WOULD be wrong, because you're acting specifically to harm the people in that small town. It just would be a moral failing on your part, not something the law should properly concern itself with. There's a difference between morality and legality, and Objectivism demands that we keep that difference in mind in government. So yes, you would be legally allowed to do what you propose. It simply would be completely irrational, entirely vicious, and most likely untennable. And there WOULD be people acting to destroy you--just as there were people acting to destroy those who did the blockaids in the past. You yourself said that this was the reason public road laws were passed, which implies that there were people acting against this sort of tactic. The only difference is that in an Objectivist society, the government wouldn't step in to help. Doesn't mean other people won't.
 
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"just being there means living off of the wildlife and vegetation that was "just there" instead of utilizing the land to produce sustenance, the process of which augments the value of the land that was just there.

I did not deny that some of the previous inhabitants did create permanent communities and enhance the productiveness of the land. Killing the peaceable ones or confiscating their land was the same crime it would be against anyone else.
Let's look at what happened to the Cherokee in Georgia. They were farming people (like most eastern Indians) with varying degrees of technology. A minority of mixed-bloods had adopted plantation farming, while the majority of the population still farmed communally. They had been farming from the time Hernando De Soto encountered them. It wasn't something Europeans had introduced.

None of this mattered to the whites in the end, because someone found gold in the land they were working. And by golly, that gold must be exploited by applying man's reason to the land and what-not and no bunch of savage farmers who fail to understand gold's objective value have a right to stand in the way of progress. So they were all removed.

What this shows is that a conqueror with superior force of arms is going to justify his conquest by drawing the line between "savage" and "man" wherever it darn well needs to be drawn.
 
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Again, this is why these scenarios are of no value--they can't be implemented in practice. I mean, the instant your henchmen touch someone outside of your property your entire plan collapses. And again, you're not going to be able to stop people like me, who are used to rugged areas, from getting out.

Ah, that'd be confusion on my part--I wasn't speaking clearly. I didn't intend to say that people here had argued that morality=altruism, merely that it's not uncommon in these discussions. Dawkins, for example, has an annoying habbit of equating the two. My statement was more an FYI for the other O'ist here that his argument style isn't going to get him very far, and to illustrate one reason. It wasn't meant to say that anyone here was doing this.

This I will strongly disagree with. Morality is not a social construct, and your definition doesn't actually define anything--it merely says that morality is whatever everyone else decides it is. Which is fine for someone who has no interest in philosophy (9 out of 10 philosophies will agree 99 out of 100 times, after all), but it's completely untennable in a philosophical discussion. It also presupposes that the listener accepts collectivism as a basic premise, because the definition is pretty much nothing BUT collectivism--it leaves NO room for an individual to disagree, or even any criteria by which to evaluate disagreement other than collectivism.

I agree it's immoral, but I strongly disagree with your reasoning. It's not wrong merely because the majority think it's wrong, and we both tacitely accept this idea. I mean, the majority of people in the Middle Ages thought torturing a confession out of people was moral. A majority of people in the Middle East think that stoning adulterous women is moral. I doubt you'll agree with either concept, and I know I wouldn't--but my definition of morality (a code of values one uses to guide one's actions) allows me to offer counter-arguments. The definition you presented--that "Morality means a code of behavior that is dictated by the social structure and culture which one lives in"--offers you no such recourse. After all, that social structure and culture supports the stonings and the torture.

Again, I don't think she ever formally wrote an opinion on this--it's mostly a collection of asides in essays on other topics. She hardly gave a full explination of her views, and given that Rand had a tendancy to do that, I'd say that probably means she didn't look into the specifics that closely. Personally, I view this like the homosexuality thing, or her early views of smoking--Rand was a product of her times, and did not fully excape the irrationalism of the day. This may be another example of it.

Spoken like a true apologist.


She did not fully escape the irrationalism of her day but you understand the truth of what she meant.
 
MichaelM, you have still not explained how these principles come from logic.

The logic supporting the definition of property is in the post I cited. If you have specific questions, then ask them.

Who decides what is "moral and just" and thus what a government should do and what is not "moral and just" and thus what it should not do?

This is an invalid question. It presumes the answer will be that some "who", i.e., some person—some consciousness—will decide, and it isn't, so your question has precluded the correct answer.

Morality and justice are normative questions that deal with what men ought to do—with what kinds of actions will lead to a successful life, both individually and socially. A successful life is one that is consistent with the requirements of one's own nature.

All living entities have a specific nature. Those that exist in the right conditions and are not prevented from acting in accordance with their nature will be successful. A species of tree the nature of which requires abundant moisture will thrive on the edge of a pond but have an unsuccessful life if a drought dries up the pond. When botanists define what a tree ought to have in order to survive and flourish, they derive a set of rules from their understanding of the fundamental nature of the tree itself. What it is determines the conditions it ought to exist in if it is to be a perfect instance of its species. Philosophers and blog posters who say you cannot get an ought from an is are severely logic challenged.

The principle holds for all living entities, but when applied to human beings there is one caveat—that all other entities are genetically programmed to act in a certain way given a certain perception or stimuli, and men have to make a choice among the alternatives.

But in each case, what one ought to do must be derived from specific facts of what they are—their fundamental nature. Following is a rough outline of the logical train of thought by which one can derive the prerequisite conditions and actions for the pursuit of a life in accordance with one's nature:

1) The existence of living organisms is conditional on self-generated action in the face of alternatives.

2) The most fundamental of all alternatives for all living creatures is life or death.

3) Of all living creatures, only man can choose which alternative to pursue.

4) The choice (deliberate or implied in all other choices) to pursue the fundamental alternative of life makes life one's fundamental goal.

5) One's fundamental goal is implicitly the standard of measure for all values one acts to gain or keep in its pursuit.

6) Therefore, that which contributes to one's life (consistent with one's nature, of course—not a mere vegetative existence) is necessarily "the good", and that which detracts from it is "the bad".

7) The long run pursuit of life necessitates a hierarchical code of values in principle (= ethics) to guide (by programming emotions) one's spontaneous choices in any alternative faced, and it requires one to opt for the higher value per that code in lieu of the lower one (= morality of egoism).

8) Man's singular means to fulfill these requirements of his nature in the pursuit of life is by applying the product of his reason to his actions in the production and exchange of values needed to survive and flourish consistent with the nature of the human being he is.

9) The extension of that individual ethic to the social context of an individual living in a society of other volitional (and therefore fallible) men requires that one seek to preserve one's own autonomy over the application of one's own reason to one's own action in the pursuit of one's own life (= freedom from the fallibility of others).

10) The only threat to a man's pursuit of his life in that context would be the initiation or threat of physical force by others to coerce certain choices of action against his will thus diminishing the above defined individual autonomy.

11) The single most fundamental political alternative is therefore not left vs. right, or liberal vs. conservative, but rather: freedom vs. force (= liberty vs. coercion, autonomy vs. servitude).

12) The sole moral requirement for any government of a society of men must therefore be to remove the use or threat of physical force from human interactions and guarantee thereby that all human interrelationships shall be entered into and conducted voluntarily. (= Rand's radical capitalism in which every individual retains his morally justified autonomy).

13) A moral government must therefore guarantee that:

No person shall initiate the use of physical force or threat thereof to take, withhold, damage or destroy any tangible or intangible value of another person who either created it or acquired it in a voluntary exchange, nor impede any other person's non-coercive actions.
 
Now you're just adding ad hoc reasons why my plan won't work. At this point, we've degenerated into "Will not!/Will so!" territory. I really don't think this is a useful line of discussion. I mean, I can counter this with "But let's say I found gold in the mountains, in land I owned, and the company that broke your blockaid would be rich!" It's degenerated into a farce.

Objectivists=/=Volcans. There's this whole thing in O'ism about how emotions are estimates of our values.

ETA: This is where you, and most critics of O'ism, are fundamentally mistaken. You WOULD be wrong, because you're acting specifically to harm the people in that small town. It just would be a moral failing on your part, not something the law should properly concern itself with. There's a difference between morality and legality, and Objectivism demands that we keep that difference in mind in government. So yes, you would be legally allowed to do what you propose. It simply would be completely irrational, entirely vicious, and most likely untennable. And there WOULD be people acting to destroy you--just as there were people acting to destroy those who did the blockaids in the past. You yourself said that this was the reason public road laws were passed, which implies that there were people acting against this sort of tactic. The only difference is that in an Objectivist society, the government wouldn't step in to help. Doesn't mean other people won't.

So we're back to the war of all against all.
 
Let's look at what happened to the Cherokee in Georgia. They were farming people (like most eastern Indians) with varying degrees of technology. A minority of mixed-bloods had adopted plantation farming, while the majority of the population still farmed communally. They had been farming from the time Hernando De Soto encountered them. It wasn't something Europeans had introduced.

None of this mattered to the whites in the end, because someone found gold in the land they were working. And by golly, that gold must be exploited by applying man's reason to the land and what-not and no bunch of savage farmers who fail to understand gold's objective value have a right to stand in the way of progress. So they were all removed.

What this shows is that a conqueror with superior force of arms is going to justify his conquest by drawing the line between "savage" and "man" wherever it darn well needs to be drawn.

Yes, it's not that might makes right but that might makes rights irrelevant.


So far in the O'ist Utopia property rights are supreme unless you aren't utilizing them properly then anyone can take it, force will be met with more force and the government will be owned by corporations.
 
Buckaroo said:
Does no one else see the irony of this statement?
Yeah, yeah, haha, very funny. Got any actual arguments to offer, or are you going to join tsig in merely making snarky comments? I'm good either way, I just want to know if you're someone I should take seriously in this discussion or not.

Besides, there's a difference between a hypothetical situation continually re-designed to specifically render the philosophy untennable, regardless of the rationality of said revisions, and proposing that we apply specific philosophical principles in practice. The whole "small mountain valley with only one way in" thing is deeply flawed, for the reasons I gave--down to the fundamental issue that the person proposing the scenario failed to differentiate between moral failings and situations where legal action was justified.

Gazpacho said:
None of this mattered to the whites in the end, because someone found gold in the land they were working. And by golly, that gold must be exploited by applying man's reason to the land and what-not and no bunch of savage farmers who fail to understand gold's objective value have a right to stand in the way of progress. So they were all removed.
And those people were wrong to do so. Seems pretty simple to me. Of course, Rand's opponents all expect Objectivists to be blindly obedient and to take Rand's works as somehow holy and infalliable, and treat Objectivists as if they behaved as such regardless of what we actually do (ample examples of that in this thread, down to people saying that I've argued something I've never argued), so I doubt this will get through.
 
Yeah, yeah, haha, very funny. Got any actual arguments to offer, or are you going to join tsig in merely making snarky comments? I'm good either way, I just want to know if you're someone I should take seriously in this discussion or not.

Besides, there's a difference between a hypothetical situation continually re-designed to specifically render the philosophy untennable, regardless of the rationality of said revisions, and proposing that we apply specific philosophical principles in practice. The whole "small mountain valley with only one way in" thing is deeply flawed, for the reasons I gave--down to the fundamental issue that the person proposing the scenario failed to differentiate between moral failings and situations where legal action was justified.

And those people were wrong to do so. Seems pretty simple to me. Of course, Rand's opponents all expect Objectivists to be blindly obedient and to take Rand's works as somehow holy and infalliable, and treat Objectivists as if they behaved as such regardless of what we actually do (ample examples of that in this thread, down to people saying that I've argued something I've never argued), so I doubt this will get through.


Why do you need an 'ism' to live by?
 
And those people were wrong to do so. Seems pretty simple to me. Of course, Rand's opponents all expect Objectivists to be blindly obedient and to take Rand's works as somehow holy and infalliable
That can happen when the Leader develops a reputation for ideological purges and her heir follows suit while declaring that the philosophy is described in toto by her works.

and treat Objectivists as if they behaved as such regardless of what we actually do (ample examples of that in this thread, down to people saying that I've argued something I've never argued), so I doubt this will get through.
You missed the point (which is a shame, because I made it so explicit). Rand defined "savagery" as was convenient for her purposes of justifying European conquest. It had nothing to do with first principles nor an informed knowledge of history.
 
Yeah, yeah, haha, very funny. Got any actual arguments to offer, or are you going to join tsig in merely making snarky comments? I'm good either way, I just want to know if you're someone I should take seriously in this discussion or not.

Nah, I'm pretty much here just for snark. Like many, I flirted with Objectivism back in college and then abandoned it when I found it wanting. Can't be bothered with it enough to put any effort into arguing about it (others are doing quite well without my help) so I'm just getting a nostalgic kick from listening in on the conversation. Ah, to be 20 again...
 
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What amazes me about the 6 pages of posts that I've just slogged through, is the absolute cocksurity of the Rand supporters about the veracity of their (mostly) untried philosophy.

When basic tenets of Objectivism have been instituted to some extent - the lack of oversight in industrial safety, meat processing, child labor, or (most recently) deregulation of the financial sector, the results didn't read quite the same at "The Fountainhead". How can you be so certain that Rand had any clue as to what actually worked in the real world?

The occasional appeals to authority notwithstanding, what is it about Objectivism that garners such loyalty in the face of such a lack of evidence?

How do you paper over the unreinforced nuclear plants that meltdown next to the nursery school? "Medicines" that cause permanent harm? Or the concentration of wealth in fewer and fewer hands with each generation? Isn't it just that belief that it won't happen to you, so, who cares?
I've read one of Ayn Rand's biographies (the more critical one) and I've seen some of her interviews on YouTube and read some of her essays. I found zero evidence and expertise, only philosophizing. And it boggles my mind how her cult following sees this self centered woman as some kind of Plato or Keynes.

Dinwar often says her critics don't know Objectivism. That's no defense, Dinwar, that's like telling everyone who disagrees with you that they don't understand what you or Rand are saying. At some point you have to consider, yes, we do, and we aren't impressed.
 
I've read one of Ayn Rand's biographies (the more critical one) and I've seen some of her interviews on YouTube and read some of her essays. I found zero evidence and expertise, only philosophizing. And it boggles my mind how her cult following sees this self centered woman as some kind of Plato or Keynes.

Dinwar often says her critics don't know Objectivism. That's no defense, Dinwar, that's like telling everyone who disagrees with you that they don't understand what you or Rand are saying. At some point you have to consider, yes, we do, and we aren't impressed.

Obviously in order to criticize O'ism you have to have read all of Ayn's works, seen all of here televised interviews and lived for 10 years as an O'ist.
 
I've read one of Ayn Rand's biographies (the more critical one) and I've seen some of her interviews on YouTube and read some of her essays. I found zero evidence and expertise, only philosophizing. And it boggles my mind how her cult following sees this self centered woman as some kind of Plato or Keynes.

That's kind of like Scientologists believing Hubbard as a mix of the Buddha, Buck Rogers and Einstein.
 
Dinwar often says her critics don't know Objectivism. That's no defense, Dinwar, that's like telling everyone who disagrees with you that they don't understand what you or Rand are saying. At some point you have to consider, yes, we do, and we aren't impressed.

The proof of that lack of understanding is on full display in this thread. It is that neither you nor anyone else so far in this blog has been able to correctly identify a tenet of the philosophy (even when Dinwar and I lay it out on the page for you) and deal with it on the level of principles.

The favorite modus operandi of the commenters here consists in arguments from intimidation, ad hominems, innuendo, insults, unsubstantiated characterizations, jokes, false assumptions, and other juvenalia that testifies to the desperation of your desire to stop the Ayn Rand train in its tracks—tactics as effective as lying across the tracks in hopes of derailing it.

Just consider the inane assertion that there is no evidence to be found in a YouTube video of a brief TV interview from a talk show in the early 1960's. What on earth made you expect a full philosophical discussion in a talk show interview. Did you look up the position for which you found no evidence and did you investigate if that evidence was in other associated writings? Can you explain your position now?
 
The proof of that lack of understanding is on full display in this thread. It is that neither you nor anyone else so far in this blog has been able to correctly identify a tenet of the philosophy (even when Dinwar and I lay it out on the page for you) and deal with it on the level of principles.

The favorite modus operandi of the commenters here consists in arguments from intimidation, ad hominems, innuendo, insults, unsubstantiated characterizations, jokes, false assumptions, and other juvenalia that testifies to the desperation of your desire to stop the Ayn Rand train in its tracks—tactics as effective as lying across the tracks in hopes of derailing it.
Just consider the inane assertion that there is no evidence to be found in a YouTube video of a brief TV interview from a talk show in the early 1960's. What on earth made you expect a full philosophical discussion in a talk show interview. Did you look up the position for which you found no evidence and did you investigate if that evidence was in other associated writings? Can you explain your position now?

O'ism is the wave of the future and soon we'll all see the error of our ways?

Thus ever the cry of the cultist.


BTW: why do you need an 'ism'?
 
The proof of that lack of understanding is on full display in this thread. It is that neither you nor anyone else so far in this blog has been able to correctly identify a tenet of the philosophy (even when Dinwar and I lay it out on the page for you) and deal with it on the level of principles.

The favorite modus operandi of the commenters here consists in arguments from intimidation, ad hominems, innuendo, insults, unsubstantiated characterizations, jokes, false assumptions, and other juvenalia that testifies to the desperation of your desire to stop the Ayn Rand train in its tracks—tactics as effective as lying across the tracks in hopes of derailing it.

Just consider the inane assertion that there is no evidence to be found in a YouTube video of a brief TV interview from a talk show in the early 1960's. What on earth made you expect a full philosophical discussion in a talk show interview. Did you look up the position for which you found no evidence and did you investigate if that evidence was in other associated writings? Can you explain your position now?
OK, go for it. Instead of telling me how I just don't know or understand Objectiviism, defend your position. What kind of argument is, "you don't get it"? A valid argument is, "you are wrong because...".

Ayn Rand is wrong because she ignores evidence of human nature and economic reality when drawing her conclusions.

As for the train, I do believe it left the station a couple decades ago and disappeared. Some people however, keep thinking they saw the ghost of that train somewhere.
:)
 
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I've read one of Ayn Rand's biographies (the more critical one) and I've seen some of her interviews on YouTube and read some of her essays. I found zero evidence and expertise, only philosophizing. And it boggles my mind how her cult following sees this self centered woman as some kind of Plato or Keynes.

Dinwar often says her critics don't know Objectivism. That's no defense, Dinwar, that's like telling everyone who disagrees with you that they don't understand what you or Rand are saying. At some point you have to consider, yes, we do, and we aren't impressed.

I read Nathaniel Branden's "Judgement Day" when it came out. I had, myself, only recently exited a fundamentalist religious cult after a stay of over 15 years. The parallels of Mr. Branden's and my experience astounded me - as do the apologies of Ms. Rand's supporters here. The basic "We know the Truth and you don't!" being the chief argument.

It's all so petty and juvenile in retrospect. And the true believers will not be discouraged no matter what evidence is brought to bear. It's something that only a lot of time and continual exposure to ACTUAL reality can remedy...
 

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