"I've come from the future...

[Flatworm]

Re: I have...

...NEITHER the time nor the inclination to partake in the kind of investigation it would take to achieve any such numerical success. We're not talking about putting all the 'previous winning numbers' in a hat and drawing out a few to generate winner, but rather an absolute scientific examination of the lottery system, and all of its working parts, ASWELL as a detialed review of the previous winning numbers.

Such a thing would take months, even years to perfect, AND it may not even be allowed by the gaming commision.

In so much, I must humbly decline your challenge.

Actually, all you have to do is get a record of past winning numbers. If there is any long-term bias, it will show up there. You can give me a random number generator in a black box, and I can analyze the output and reveal any bias without ever looking inside.

 

[Guest]

and it is also 'technically impossible' to make a machine that flys...
What kind of ASSBACKWARD thinking is THAT!?!?
EVERYTHING is possible given unlimited resources. Are you ignorantly suggesting that man is somehow 'limited' in what he can see, understand, and record!?!?

You have a very large whole in your reasoning here.

Yes, everything is possible given unlimited resources.
However you do not have unlimited resources, no one does.

Unlimited resources would include:
Unlimited funds: Nope sorry not even Bill G has these.
Unlimited time: Nope, you're gonna die.
Unlimited intelligence: Oh hell no.
etc etc

Therefore to have unlimited resources is impossible so what you are saying is:
'Everything is possible if you just give me the impossible.'

Well duh, no ◊◊◊◊ Sherlock.

That is the equivalent of saying 'I could be Supermen if I was born on a distant planet under a red sun and sent here as a baby to grow up under this yellow one, but I wasn't so I aint, but I coulda been.'

 

[c4ts]

Re: c4ts

...If you refuse to heed the warnings of those who know more than yourself, you are going to find yourself a few miles SOUTH of just screwed.

Indeed I will, but your warnings are another matter altogether.

 

[davidhorman]

Are you suggesting that there was never a time when Man believed it was impossible to fly?

OR

Are you saying that Man was RIGHT when he thought so limitedly?

This thread has pretty well exploded since I last looked at it, so I'll just go back to this, which KOA said to me (I think).

I'm not suggesting either of those things. I have said nothing about your dreams of interstellar flights. What *I* have said is that to accurately simulate such a chaotic system as the lottery you would need more information than Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle (let alone simple logistics) allows you to have. Your own simulation could disturb the drawing of the numbers, let alone the other facts I have outlined (not knowing beforehand the exact time of the draw, the positions of all the various pieces of equipment, etc).

David

 

[Hannibal]

Re: Sure...

EVERYTHING is possible given unlimited resources. Are you ignorantly suggesting that man is somehow 'limited' in what he can see, understand, and record!?!?

[/B]

Try and fold a piece of paper in half ten times then

 

[King of the Americas]

To Aoidoi

Indeed, I have served as 'project supervisor' for several different kinds of projects, starting when I was 16 and in charge of 6 other young men asked to build a a small barn, as a industerial arts training exercise. As well at age 20, I served as the project manager of a very successful dirt track racing team, which is the closest thing I have done to doing something similar to my cousin's boss, but I would need months of briefing before I could actual step in and be effective.

Which really isn't the point here.

Rather, the issue at hand is what are we doing, compared to what are we technologically capable of?

'I' say given the resources of the private sector, used in conjunction with the knowledge being withheld by the government, we could EASILY put 'men' in the stars.

Could 'I' head a project at NASA? Probably not...but if the funds were available, I'd love to take a crack at a shot with free range in an "Existing Technologies' Alternative Uses Department" (if such a thing exists).

The solution to our earthbound problem lies in combining what the government knows, with what the masses can achieve.

 

[CFLarsen]

Indeed, I have served as 'project supervisor' for several different kinds of projects, starting when I was 16 and in charge of 6 other young men asked to build a a small barn, as a industerial arts training exercise. As well at age 20, I served as the project manager of a very successful dirt track racing team, which is the closest thing I have done to doing something similar to my cousin's boss, but I would need months of briefing before I could actual step in and be effective.

You think your experience would match being a boss of systems engineers at NASA? You are even more deluded than I thought!!

Which really isn't the point here.

Well, actually, it is. You claimed you "COULD do his boss's job." Now, you admit that you can't. Do you honestly think a few months of briefing is enough to fill a position like this? Do you consider yourself so much more brilliant than the boss in question?

Do you even know what the boss actually does?

Rather, the issue at hand is what are we doing, compared to what are we technologically capable of?

'I' say given the resources of the private sector, used in conjunction with the knowledge being withheld by the government, we could EASILY put 'men' in the stars.

Do tell: What knowledge is being "withheld by the government"?

Could 'I' head a project at NASA? Probably not...but if the funds were available, I'd love to take a crack at a shot with free range in an "Existing Technologies' Alternative Uses Department" (if such a thing exists).

Go ahead. Tell us how you would design - with what we are technologically capable of - a spaceship that would reach the stars.

The solution to our earthbound problem lies in combining what the government knows, with what the masses can achieve.

...and putting King of the Americas in charge, not to forget!

 

[Upchurch]

Going back a little bit, I believe the original conversation was on the possibility that, given enough resources, one could travel through time.

Forward travel through time is rather easy. We do it all the time and through the use of spacial acceleration, we can speed up the process (look up the twin paradox for more details).

I'm going to make the assumption that what King of America is refering to is backward time travel, which is a much more allusive beast. There are a couple of ways, theoretically, that it could be done including the use of wormholes or black holes. a blackhole, despite what the movies say, .will kill anyone long before they get close enough to use one in this fashion. It's not speculation, it's mathematical fact.

You're best bet, KoA, would then be wormholes. And even then, you couldn't really use them to travel to Earth's past because it's too close. You could, instead, use it to travel to the past of a planet lightyears away.

The trouble is, and here I'd have to re-look up the exact numbers, that in order to generate a wormhole you'd need more energy than can be generated on the earth alone, even if you could perfectly convert the mass of the Earth to energy (e=mc^2).

So, it really wouldn't matter how many resources you have. There simply aren't enough on Earth to do what you claim. I'm tempted to say there isn't enough in the solar system, but I'd have to check on that.

Upchurch

 

[King of the Americas]

The premise of this post...

...BEGAN with the idea that those who could foretell the future are usually doomed to have no one believe them. I started with the remeberance of an old myth about a woman who could foretell the future, but had not the ability for people to believe her.

And I asked if you COULD predict future events, how would you prove it. After all, skeptic scientists are still claim thea Global Warming isn't really happening right now! And that the increased CO2 levels aren't going to have an drastic effect...!

Then someone said that IF I wanted to prove I could foretell the future, to come up with next week's winning lottery numbers. And to this, I said I COULD do such a thing given access to all of the working parts of the lottery system, as well as the previous winning numbers, and enough time and resources to make a complete study.

And I rendered the quote: "Give me a goal, and a deep pocket, and I will prove man an accomplisher."

Wherein, the post took on a new life, and it was about my lack of knowledge of Greek and Roman myths.

The second page focused on this, and my viewpoint that give enough time and resources 'I' could do anything, even create a craft that could put men into the stars, wherein I really pulled the ◊◊◊◊ down atop my head.

In the end, my main contention is that: 1.) IF you could foretell teh future, there would be a very small chance of anyone ever believing you. 2.) That given enough time and resources, all things are possible. and 3.) 'I' am unable to prove any of this...

Whether or not 'time travel' is possible either forward or backward was never really the issue.

ALL this being said, are those who would collect data and observe common occurances in an attempt 'theorize' what will happen next really doomed to have skeptics disblieve all their conclusions...in lou of 'proof'?

Those who would support the 'prediction' of future global warming were and still ARE being fought tooth and nail on this. AND they actually have testable data!

What would someone from the future have to tell YOU about your future, and how long would it take you to have him put away in some kind of home?

 

[Tricky]

Re: The premise of this post...

Then someone said that IF I wanted to prove I could foretell the future, to come up with next week's winning lottery numbers. And to this, I said I COULD do such a thing given access to all of the working parts of the lottery system, as well as the previous winning numbers, and enough time and resources to make a complete study.

... and it was pointed out by many that you STILL couldn't do this with any available technology. You are merely hypothesizing that someday the technology may exist. But even if it did, I'm sure "lottery technology" would find a way to counter "lottery predicting technology".

The second page focused on this, and my viewpoint that give enough time and resources 'I' could do anything, even create a craft that could put men into the stars, wherein I really pulled the ◊◊◊◊ down atop my head.

Thank you, KOA. It takes a brave person to admit he made a mistake. I am glad you have abandoned this contention and I think more of you for it.

In the end, my main contention is that: 1.) IF you could foretell teh future, there would be a very small chance of anyone ever believing you. 2.) That given enough time and resources, all things are possible. and 3.) 'I' am unable to prove any of this...

1.) Actually, you would stand a pretty good chance of getting SOME people to believe you. Look at the Heaven's Gate cult. Look at Scientology. One of Murphys laws should be "There is no idea so stupid that somebody doesn't believe in it."
And of course, lots of people (besides psychics) make their living predicting the future. They are called "stockbrokers".

2.) Not necessarily true. Some are pretty unlikely (like re-creating the Big Bang). As was pointed out, if by "enough" you mean "infinite", then you are talking about an undefinable quantity.

3.) Of course. That is why it is best to preface such sweeping statements with "I believe". Of course, that prefix is implied, but it looks better if you are not pretending to know such things.

ALL this being said, are those who would collect data and observe common occurances in an attempt 'theorize' what will happen next really doomed to have skeptics disblieve all their conclusions...in lieu of 'proof'?

Data collection and evaluation is highly encouraged. Nobody here is asking for absolute mathmatical proof. What we are asking for is a reasonably good record of predictions. This is how you people choose which stockbroker to use. (And of course, predicting things that have already happened, like the Bible does, is not prophecy.)

Those who would support the 'prediction' of future global warming were and still ARE being fought tooth and nail on this. AND they actually have testable data!

Here I tend to agree with you, although there is a lot of contradictory data and lots of world models. The vast majority of people have agreed that the Earth is warming (hint: sea level is rising) but they don't agree as to whether it is caused by man or just normal climatic fluctuation. Of course, those who are arguing hardest for "normal climatic fluctuation" are those for whom cutting down energy usage would be personally traumatic or financially disasterous. It's called, "enlightened self-interest".

What would someone from the future have to tell YOU about your future, and how long would it take you to have him put away in some kind of home?

It would depend, of course, on what kind of predictions they made. If they said, "You will work about ten more years then retire with a modest income, then in less than 30 more years, you will die", then I would tend to agree (but not be particularly impressed). If they said, "Tomorrow you will be kidnapped by Mexican guerillas posing as a mariachi band and made to play the marimba until President Bush agrees to stop calling them 'Mescans' ", then I might look at them askance. However, if that person had previously provided me a winning lottery number before making the kidnapping prediction, then I'd be on the next plane out of town.

 

[Guest]

I can't read an entire KOA thread. Just can't do it. So excuse me if I repeat something someone else might have said.

Okay. Given enough resources (money), I can win the Powerball Lottery every time.

82 Million dollars in resources outta bout do it.

I promise I won't use any hocus-pocus.

 

[patnray]

I question the assertion that "EVERYTHING is possible given unlimited resources. " It is always possible to describe impossible tasks, for example: can you make a rock so big it can not be moved? If everything is possible then it should be possible to create such a rock. And, if EVERYTHING is possible, then it should be possible to move it... This kind of statement leads inevitably to such paradoxes.

Can the lottery be simulated: no. The process is designed to be chaotic. Even if all the balls started in exactly the same position, the results will vary, time after time. And if you had unlimited resources, why would you care about predicting lottery results?

Here in California, by the way, the balls are all weighed and measured before the drawings, and there are several sets, one of which is chosen randomly for use before each drawing... These are just some of the measures taken to ensure a chaotic and unpredictable outcome.

 

[King of the Americas]

This is my oldest post from this year.

Wow, look how idealistic I was.

 

[aggle_rithm]

Re: To Furterfan

Give me a goal, and a deep pocket, and I will prove man an accomplisher.

Exactly the sort of rhetoric that sustains funding for charlatans.

"If I could only get a few million dollars more, I could prove that there is a microscopic but measurable bend in this spoon. But nobody CARES, dangit!"

 

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Sound Bite

Please ensure your volume is turned on for this

Klaatu

Helen

 

[King of the Americas]

And what if I could...

...tell you what was going to happen, then what?

-No one believes me and it happens anyway, so saying it didn't matter.

-Someone believes, me, and acts to stop it FROM happening, and then I turn out being wrong.

Ah, the curse of foresight lives on...

I have 'predicted' qute a few things in my time, but I must say that there is no ESP in this. It is quite easy to read certain signs, present throughout history. We are, if anything very circular in our behavior. After a while it is just a matter of watching the wheel turn and looking ahead of the turn.

Indeed, the details of who, when, and where all change but it is not difficult to see that we are repeating a lot of history, and have still not broken the chains of violence over territory.

'I' truly see better days through better ways for us all, but not with a greater struggle.

The days we are living in NOW, have already been written about by many others, and it is not difficult to see how accurate or inaccurate they are.

 

[Psiload]

Re: And what if I could...

...tell you what was going to happen, then what?

-No one believes me and it happens anyway, so saying it didn't matter.

-Someone believes, me, and acts to stop it FROM happening, and then I turn out being wrong.

Ah, the curse of foresight lives on...

I have 'predicted' qute a few things in my time, but I must say that there is no ESP in this. It is quite easy to read certain signs, present throughout history. We are, if anything very circular in our behavior. After a while it is just a matter of watching the wheel turn and looking ahead of the turn.

Indeed, the details of who, when, and where all change but it is not difficult to see that we are repeating a lot of history, and have still not broken the chains of violence over territory.

'I' truly see better days through better ways for us all, but not with a greater struggle.

The days we are living in NOW, have already been written about by many others, and it is not difficult to see how accurate or inaccurate they are.

You predicted:

- that you could build a device that would convert the energy of a single person peddling on a stationary bicycle into enough electricity to power an entire city block... outcome: you still pay monthly utility bills.

- that Saddam Hussein would retaliate against a US led invasion of Iraq by launching nuclear missiles into Isreal, which in turn would lead to armageddon... outcome: no comment required.

- that your "World Peace Concert" would be bigger than Woodstock... outcome: more than ten people showed up to Woodstock.

- that you would be a contender in your hometown's last mayorial race... outcome: you didn't even have to take off your shoes to tally up the number of votes you got.

- that terrorist "sleeper cells" would be activated in the US, and wreck havoc across the country in the year following the 9/11 attacks... outcome: the cells must have ODed on NoDoze.

These are just a few off the top of my head, I'm sure there are many more dismal flops... perhaps it would be an easier task to list your accurate predictions?:

-


Oh yeah... that was much easier on the ol' carpal tunnel.

 

[aggle_rithm]

Re: Re: And what if I could...

You predicted:

- that you could build a device that would convert the energy of a single person peddling on a stationary bicycle into enough electricity to power an entire city block... outcome: you still pay monthly utility bills.

- that Saddam Hussein would retaliate against a US led invasion of Iraq by launching nuclear missiles into Isreal, which in turn would lead to armageddon... outcome: no comment required.

- that your "World Peace Concert" would be bigger than Woodstock... outcome: more than ten people showed up to Woodstock.

- that you would be a contender in your hometown's last mayorial race... outcome: you didn't even have to take off your shoes to tally up the number of votes you got.

- that terrorist "sleeper cells" would be activated in the US, and wreck havoc across the country in the year following the 9/11 attacks... outcome: the cells must have ODed on NoDoze.

These are just a few off the top of my head, I'm sure there are many more dismal flops... perhaps it would be an easier task to list your accurate predictions?:

-


Oh yeah... that was much easier on the ol' carpal tunnel.

And remember: He was able to accomplish all this WITHOUT THE BENEFIT OF ESP!!!

 

[scotth]

There is nothing worse than a self assured, short sighted scientist...

Sure there is.

 

[King of the Americas]

THIS message board...

...set up is COOL!