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It's 2016 and slavery still exists

Puppycow

Penultimate Amazing
Puppycow
Joined
Jan 9, 2003
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Saudi women file petition to end male guardianship system

"Guardianship". It's a euphemism for ownership and male supremacy.

A petition signed by more than 14,000 Saudi women calling for an end to the country's male guardianship system is being handed to the government.

Women must have the consent of a male guardian to travel abroad, and often need permission to work or study.

Support for the first large-scale campaign on the issue grew online in response to a trending Twitter hashtag.

Activist Aziza Al-Yousef told the BBC she felt "very proud" of the campaign, but now needed a response.

In the deeply conservative Islamic kingdom, a woman must have permission from her father, brother or other male relative - in the case of a widow, sometimes her son - to obtain a passport, marry or leave the country.

Many workplaces and universities also demand a guardian's consent for female employees and students, although it is not legally required.

Renting a flat, undergoing hospital treatment or filing a legal claim often also require a male guardian's permission, and there is very little recourse for women whose guardians abuse them or severely limit their freedom.
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Of course, I knew about this before, but it still flabbergasts me every time I am reminded.

It's slavery really. Pure chattel slavery and legally enforced too. Supposedly every country in the world has officially banned slavery but it still persists in a de facto manner in some countries. However the rights of Saudi women are little better than slaves owned by their men. Bizarre.

And of course, they cannot drive a car, no matter what their "guardian" says.

Why isn't Saudi Arabia a pariah like Apartheid South Africa was? I'm glad these women are taking action and I hope the government responds appropriately. If they just ignore it, clearly something more needs to be done. Is it just a domestic matter that shouldn't concern non Saudis?
 
Puppycow said:
Why isn't Saudi Arabia a pariah like Apartheid South Africa was?
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I'm guessing it has to do with their commanding share of production of one of the most critical resources to run the world economy.

I don't like it any more than you do, but realistically we're stuck with the Saudis for the next decade or two. After that however, we can throw them to the pigs. Dogs are more commonly used in this context, but they deserve pigs.

McHrozni
 
marplots said:
Is 14,000 a lot for Saudi Arabia?
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With a population of 31 millions, including one third of foreigners, I would guess 14,000 is a rather low figure.

I am afraid that most of the women in Saudi Arabia still stick to strict tradition and will therefore not back up this petition.

The petition is probably already in the trash can of the government responsible for women issues (if any).
 
McHrozni said:
I'm guessing it has to do with their commanding share of production of one of the most critical resources to run the world economy.
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It's an interesting question.

Apartheid in South Africa was opposed on several levels. There were sanctions imposed by national governments. There were divestments and boycotts by local and municipal governments, independently of their national governments. And there were boycotts and protests by groups of private citizens as well.

But it's relatively easy to cut off commerce with a nation like South Africa. As an individual consumer, I can't boycott Saudi Oil, because there's no such thing as a gas station chain that only offers Saudi Oil. The same goes for other retailers.

Municipalities and other local governments are in a similar situation. You could threaten to boycott all oil vendors, unless they were able to certify that they don't source any Saudi oil. Similar things have been done to influence the market in humanitarian coffee, and organic produce. But doing this with oil would almost certainly shut down all your operations, long before it made a significant impact on the bad actors.

And of course nation states must be concerned with the global economy. So they can't just start a game of chicken with Saudi Arabia, the way they could with South Africa.

But that still leaves public outcry. Apartheid received a lot of official condemnation over the years. But it also became a target of popular activism and protest. We don't see that happening with Saudi Arabia. Why?

People like oil, but they don't like oil that much, do they? And people are colossal hypocrites. Is it really the case that people are ashamed to drive their oil-powered car to an anti-oil producer rally?

There's also the obvious opportunity for a nudging effect here. Cities can't embargo all oil vendors--they'd grind to a halt within days. But they can offer incentives, subsidies, etc. to contractors who are able to certify they are not sourcing Saudi oil. San Francisco has taken the lead in so many other social justice fights. Why not this one?

I don't think the lack of public outcry, and the lack of public demand for a new and better way of doing business with oil producers, can be attributed solely to Saudi Arabia's central place in the oil economy.
 
Saudi Arabia is not the only oil producer in the world. It is however not sure other big oil providers like Iran or Russia would be an acceptable alternative in the USA and other countries.
 
theprestige said:
But it's relatively easy to cut off commerce with a nation like South Africa. As an individual consumer, I can't boycott Saudi Oil, because there's no such thing as a gas station chain that only offers Saudi Oil. The same goes for other retailers.
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For Americans, the importance of Saudi oil is (in some ways) over-stated. We extract 60% of our oil domestically, and of the 40% oil we import, only 16% (of that 40%) comes from the middle east. So only about 6% to 7% of our oil comes from the middle east, of which about 2/3 (of the 6% to 7%) comes from Saudi Arabia.

The main reason that the U.S. favors the Saudis so much is that they are a somewhat reliable ally (the government, at least, individual Saudis not so much). Also, our allies are very dependent upon Saudi oil, so kneecapping the Saudi government could make life harder for our Western European allies, and make our non-ally Russia more influential.

We could, in theory, boycott Saudi oil if we could get even just one producer-to-retail supply chain to stop supplying its' retail outlets with Saudi oil. That would probably be moderately technically difficult for an oil supply chain, but probably impossible in terms of the influence these companies need to make backroom deals and such.

We could have more success with denying the Saudis access to American weapons and defense equipment.
 
crescent said:
For Americans, the importance of Saudi oil is (in some ways) over-stated. We extract 60% of our oil domestically, and of the 40% oil we import, only 16% (of that 40%) comes from the middle east. So only about 6% to 7% of our oil comes from the middle east, of which about 2/3 (of the 6% to 7%) comes from Saudi Arabia.

The main reason that the U.S. favors the Saudis so much is that they are a somewhat reliable ally (the government, at least, individual Saudis not so much). Also, our allies are very dependent upon Saudi oil, so kneecapping the Saudi government could make life harder for our Western European allies, and make our non-ally Russia more influential.

We could, in theory, boycott Saudi oil if we could get even just one producer-to-retail supply chain to stop supplying its' retail outlets with Saudi oil. That would probably be moderately technically difficult for an oil supply chain, but probably impossible in terms of the influence these companies need to make backroom deals and such.

We could have more success with denying the Saudis access to American weapons and defense equipment.
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In many ways it just doesn't matter though what percentage of our oil imports come from the Middle East or Saudi Arabia in particular. What sets the price is global supply and global demand. Say the US, Canada and Europe decided to boycott Saudi oil, but their total demand for oil remains the same. That means they have to buy more oil from other producers to make up the difference. That means other net importing countries like China and Japan may have to more of their oil from Saudi Arabia because the other suppliers now have less oil to supply. There used to be sanctions on Iranian oil, and I guess that worked to a certain extent. You definitely need lots of countries (most big importers of oil in particular) to all agree to the sanctions for them to have any effect.

But really, I think that this is a case where boycotts are probably not the way to go. Just try peer pressure. Moral pressure. They are human beings after all and they probably care about what other people think about them. How did we end Jim Crow in the United States? People speaking up, marching, protesting. Saudi Arabia needs its own female Gandhi or Mandela or MLK to be the face of the movement. Outside support and pressure may help but some sort of domestic movement is also necessary. This petition could be a start. Thing is, they can't just take no for an answer. If the government just ignores it or says we'll think about it and have a commission study it (i.e., pretend to take it seriously but actually just do nothing) there has to be a next step. After all, petitions are pretty easy to ignore or blow off that way. Civil disobedience is harder to deal with.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Ending slavery in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere in the world has to start somewhere.
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Are you going to bell the cat?

Your sentiment is a noble one. I am curious what your suggested course of action is that will move the cause forward.

Care to share?
 
Darth Rotor said:
Are you going to bell the cat?

Your sentiment is a noble one. I am curious what your suggested course of action is that will move the cause forward.

Care to share?
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I'm writing a sci fi book I hope will bring some light on the subject.

In the meantime though, you appear to be taking my post out of context. There was a complaint made that the number of women in Saudi that are involved in the current protest is not significant, to which I replied, movements have to start somewhere.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
I'm writing a sci fi book I hope will bring some light on the subject.

In the meantime though, you appear to be taking my post out of context. There was a complaint made that the number of women in Saudi that are involved in the current protest is not significant, to which I replied, movements have to start somewhere.
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OK, fair enough.
(Best wishes on getting the book published. Got a few friends in the author world, it can be a grind. Hang in there! :thumbsup: )
 
This thread isn't about the foreign 'workers' in Qatar? Colour me somewhat surprised.
 
Darth Rotor said:
OK, fair enough.
(Best wishes on getting the book published. Got a few friends in the author world, it can be a grind. Hang in there! :thumbsup: )
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Thank you. The sex slavery scenes were some of the hardest to write. It's YA so the sex scenes are rated PG 13, but slavery is really about the cruelty and degradation, not only the sex. The book is written but editing and rewriting is tedious beyond tedious.

The mistreatment of women around the world has to change. And we may be confronting this cultural divide sooner rather than later as the backward world crashes into the modern world.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
I'm writing a sci fi book I hope will bring some light on the subject.
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Now this is interesting. As a Sci Fi author, what would you say are the three most influential Sci Fi books, in terms of social justice?

Me? I like The Time Machine, I, Robot, and Use of Weapons. But none of them were very influential at all. I look forward to your contribution to the otherwise anemic field of socially influential Sci Fi books.
 
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Degeneve said:
Saudi Arabia is not the only oil producer in the world. It is however not sure other big oil providers like Iran or Russia would be an acceptable alternative in the USA and other countries.
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No reasonable standard exist that would make Saudi oil unacceptable but Russian and Iranian oil acceptable.

Yeah, Saudi Arabia is bad, but there are no better alternatives. We're stuck with them for another decade or two, but I hope that will be it.

McHrozni
 
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