It Has Happened Again...

[CFLarsen]

No, but you are by the way to ask that question. Not taking your obvious flame bait.

I am suggesting that an approach one can take is to ensure one's own children are not the root of the problem. A key ingredient to that is how you raise your children.

Slingblade opened a line of thought on how one addresses the behavioral causes of kids acting out violently with guns. My suggestion is that one path to that end begins in the home, with a deeper root cause being the mind set of the adults/parents on where priorities lie once one decides to procreate.

DR

Hence my question. Since there are far more gun killings in the US than in other countries (check the study), there must be something wrong with the way kids are brought up in the US, if you want to make the point you are making.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Hence my question. Since there are far more gun killings in the US than in other countries (check the study), there must be something wrong with the way kids are brought up in the US, if you want to make the point you are making.

Your conclusion. You are free to arrive at that for whatever purposes please you.

14,000 died of AIDS, 11,000 from gun violence in same time period, per our last wonderful discussion on this topic.

Which gun is the problem here? Do you intend to propose a ban on penises?

DR

 

[RandFan]

Sorry, death by drunk drivers is not a result of alcoholism, it is a result of driving while intoxicated. It is a large leap from intoxication to alcoholism.

I never said death by drunk drivers is a result of alcoholics. My point about alcoholism is that it hurts the families of alcoholics.

You also have to remember that for every drunk that loses their job, someone else gains a job.

This isn't much comfort for the child whose father can no longer pay the bills.

The only way I will allow you to use your analogy of alcoholism in this discussion is if you can show me that a person can storm a school and force enough alcohol down the throats of students to kill and maim several before being captured or killed by police. I'm betting college students welcome this type of attack!

I wasn't making an analogy. I was rebutting your argument that alcohol only hurts the person who drinks. This is demonstrably wrong.

However if the availability of guns contributes to deaths then it is demonstrable that the availability of alcohol also contributes to death. Lot's of it.

 

[RandFan]

Then, get rid of them.

What do you think?

Such prohibitions have never been demonstrated to work. If people want something they get it. Drugs are illegal in the US but plentiful and they drive a black market and contribute significantly to crime. When Alcohol was illegal in the US it was plentiful and it drove a black market and contributed significantly to crime.

I'd rather not do the same with guns.

 

[CFLarsen]

No, I am happy to let that young man's actions speak for themselves. He done good.

One more gun advocate who refuses to look at the hard facts.

Your conclusion. You are free to arrive at that for whatever purposes please you.

I don't have a purpose - I am merely following your argument with the logical conclusion.

If the upbringing of kids is part of the problem, and we don't see this happening in other countries, then there must be something wrong with the way American kids are raised.

You don't want to talk about that either?

14,000 died of AIDS, 11,000 from gun violence in same time period, per our last wonderful discussion on this topic.

Which gun is the problem here? Do you intend to propose a ban on penises?

Those fallacies again...

Such prohibitions have never been demonstrated to work. If people want something they get it. Drugs are illegal in the US but plentiful and they drive a black market and contribute significantly to crime. When Alcohol was illegal in the US it was plentiful and it drove a black market and contributed significantly to crime.

I'd rather not do the same with guns.

This argument is simply not valid. We should see a big black market for guns in countries with severe gun restrictions. We don't.

 

[RandFan]

This argument is simply not valid. We should see a big black market for guns in countries with severe gun restrictions. We don't.

And those countries have the same market for guns? Guns are not cheap yet there's a huge market for guns in the US. People are willing to spend a fair amount of cash to buy guns here. The argument is valid because guns are something that Americans very much want.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Those fallacies again...

Phallusies in this case.


DR

 

[RandFan]

This argument is simply not valid. We should see a big black market for guns in countries with severe gun restrictions. We don't.

BTW, prohibition of alcohol in Saudi Arabia hasn't caused a big black market for alcohol. Comparing nations isn't very useful since they are different dynamically.

 

[Katana]

Out of how many school shootings?

You can always find the odd example. I am talking about this as a whole.

My point was that, even if these boys had no access to guns, they could have killed hundreds of people had the bombs that they built gone off successfully.

There is no reason to think that it couldn't happen again.

As I said before, the problem is not the guns or the bombs. It is with those who choose to use them to commit murder and whatever personal, societal, & environmental influences led them to do so.

 

[Brickroad]

My mind was changed by a JREF gun thread.

Mine too. I was CFL-style anti-gun a few years ago, but after reading a few extensive JREF threads on the subject I realized I had never really thought about it. Now that I have, my opinions on the subject have changed.

(Note that I haven't read this gun thread yet; I got about halfway through page one, saw a heartfelt appeal to lurkers, and thought I'd chime in. Back to lurking!)

 

[qayak]

Sorry, but that is complete nonsense. There are plenty of safe ways to use a gun. I use guns frequently. I have not once been shot. I have not once been shot at. I have not once shot someone else. Shooting a gun at a person is unsafe just as driving a car while drunk is unsafe. If I get drunk and crash into a tree, I may end up dead, or I may end up seriously injured, but alive. If I handle a gun improperly, I may end up dead, or I may end up shooting myself in the foot, but not killing myself. There is no "slippery slope" there. There are many ways to use a gun safely. Millions of people safely use guns every day.

Driving a car is dangerous. Driving while intoxicated is very dangerous. Let's not pretend that driving is a perfectly safe activity until alcohol becomes involved.

There have been many restrictions put on driving in order to stop prevent injuries and death. One of those restrictions is that you are not allowed to drive while drunk.

Yes there are safe ways to use a gun but there are also many dangerous things done with guns. One of them is leaving them laying around, usually loaded where kids, mostly boys, have unrestricted and unsupervised access to them.

If you leave your car running, with the keys in it, your insurance company will not pay. In my area, if that car was stolen and someone killed or property damaged, the public insurance company would pay but you would be billed.

The reason for this is that you were negligent. Why not with a gun? The fact is, any owner who does not properly secure their gun, at all times, is a negligent gun owner and should be held responsible for all injuries and damage attributed to that gun.

Yes, guns can be perfectly safe, unfortunately far too many are not and need to be controlled. But don't worry, seatbelt laws didn't stop anyone from enjoying a Sunday drive with the family I doubt safe storing laws will stop you from enjoying your gun at the range or in the field.

 

[CFLarsen]

And those countries have the same market for guns? Guns are not cheap yet there's a huge market for guns in the US. People are willing to spend a fair amount of cash to buy guns here. The argument is valid because guns are something that Americans very much want.

Danes are willing to spend a fair amount on just about anything these days. We are experiencing a fantastic economic growth.

And yes, some spend some of it on something that is not entirely legal: We have drugs too, although not as seriously as in the US.

But we don't spend it on illegal guns. Your argument is invalid.

BTW, prohibition of alcohol in Saudi Arabia hasn't caused a big black market for alcohol.

That's because their religion forbids it.

Comparing nations isn't very useful since they are different dynamically.

We can and do, in many cases, compare nations, especially if they are alike in culture. No, there is not that big a difference between American culture and Danish culture.

 

[CFLarsen]

My point was that, even if these boys had no access to guns, they could have killed hundreds of people had the bombs that they built gone off successfully.

There is no reason to think that it couldn't happen again.

Anything can happen. But kids bringing bombs to school doesn't happen nowhere as often as kids bringing guns to school.

As I said before, the problem is not the guns or the bombs. It is with those who choose to use them to commit murder and whatever personal, societal, & environmental influences led them to do so.

Wrong. We have seen that there is a clear link between a large number of guns in society and a large number of gun deaths.

That is a fact.

 

[Joe Random]

...guns ...

Fortunately there exist clear signs that the useful life of an otherwise interesting thread has come to a premature (and lamented) end.

 

[Katana]

Anything can happen. But kids bringing bombs to school doesn't happen nowhere as often as kids bringing guns to school.

Right. Because guns are more readily available. Take them away without addressing anything else behind these shootings, and you'll see a rise in the use of bombs.

Wrong. We have seen that there is a clear link between a large number of guns in society and a large number of gun deaths.

That is a fact.

And not a surprising one.

My comments are directed specifically to the problem of school shootings.

 

[CFLarsen]

Right. Because guns are more readily available. Take them away without addressing anything else behind these shootings, and you'll see a rise in the use of bombs.

Why?

We don't see that in other countries with less guns.

 

[Complexity]

That would be Larsen. -son is Swedish, -sen is Danish. </nitpick>

And the difference is... ?

 

[Katana]

Why?

We don't see that in other countries with less guns.

Why not?

Do you think that a teenager who is pissed off and/or ill enough to go to school to kill people will be disuaded just because he can't find a gun? They're not going to school to shoot people. They're going to school to kill people. Removing access to guns removes access to a set of tools, but there are others available if they're determined enough.

As for other countries, I cannot comment. I don't know if anyone has tallied up the number of murders in schools by students relative to guns per capita per country. I actually tried to find information about it and was unable. If you find anything, I would be curious.

 

[clarsct]

When was the worst school massacre in the history of the US?
No, no. It wasn't Columbine.
It was earlier than that.

Anyone? Bueller?

1929.

It isn't the guns, nor the availability of the guns, nor the number of guns.


Slingblade is correct. It is a bad craftsman that blames his tools. The problem isn't with the tools, it is with the person using them. However, this is hard to fix. Easier to make legislation that looks good in the short term so you can be re-elected.

Our gun laws are now stricter than they were in 1929. School shooting still occur. Perhaps gun control laws aren't the answer. They haven't worked so far.

 

[CFLarsen]

Why not?

Do you think that a teenager who is pissed off and/or ill enough to go to school to kill people will be disuaded just because he can't find a gun? They're not going to school to shoot people. They're going to school to kill people. Removing access to guns removes access to a set of tools, but there are others available if they're determined enough.

It's the other way around: With guns, they have an easy way to kill others. Many others.

As for other countries, I cannot comment. I don't know if anyone has tallied up the number of murders in schools by students relative to guns per capita per country. I actually tried to find information about it and was unable. If you find anything, I would be curious.

The data is already there: We simply don't see these types of school killings - regardless of weapon - in comparable countries. But where do we hear about school shootings? The US.

If you want to argue that they would have killed anyway, in the same numbers, you have to explain why this doesn't happen elsewhere. Otherwise, you have nothing but baseless speculation.