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It CAN Happen Here....

I hate mentioning Hitler. In terms of rhetoric and undermining institutions there are definitely similarities. Both pushing the nationalism button. But Trump doesn't really have the power base that Hitler had. And while there is little doubt that Trump is a bigot, he's not a white supremacist. More like Archie Bunker than Adolf Hitler.

<snip>


Archie Bunker demonstrated the ability to feel remorse, to try and make amends for his mistakes, and to ultimately treat people with dignity in spite of the inclinations which were provoked by his bigotry and ignorance.

This was an essential message of the show.

Trump, as far as I know, has never in his entire life ever evinced any tendency at all toward any such redeeming qualities.

If anything he has shown a constant striving toward the opposite.
 
What ledge are people walking off of again?

I believe that pointing out the authoritarian type of actions and speech that Trump and the GOP are using helps to prevent a dictatorship from happening. If there weren't protests, those in power would simply take more power.

Is this a character trait of all politician, or the the republicans?
 
The man is a boor and a fool. There's no telling whether the guy will straighten up and fly right, or implode and resign. I make no representations as to the possibility of the former, but would not be surprised to see the later.

IMO more likely neither. Health permitting he will serve a full 8 years causing a certain amount of reputational damage to the United States and the office of President. He will further enrich himself and his family and the GOP will continue to look on benignly because their major objectives, tax cuts for the very wealthy, welfare cuts for the poor, repeal of the ACA, Christian leaning SCOTUS and the gutting of financial and environmental regulation will all have been achieved.

40% of the UK electorate will consider him one of the finest Presidents ever and will be prepared to vote for an equivalent in 2028. :(
 
To those who don't see any difference between this presidency and any other, a few questions:

- Which other US president waged a full on war on the media - the institution who's role it is to monitor the power of politicians and others in society - to the extent of labeling this vital part of a democracy "enemies of the people?

- Which other president had a hostile foreign nation work to put him into power? A nation that the president's administration was then trying to pull back sanctions on?

- Which other president has lied this much to his own voters?

Answer these questions honestly, and then tell me this is just another presidency.

My guess is that any responses will completely dodge the questions and complain about semantics or "loaded questions."
 
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You're entirely correct, but it doesn't help make the case that Trump is somehow the epitome of evil in two-legged form.

The man is a boor and a fool. There's no telling whether the guy will straighten up and fly right, or implode and resign. I make no representations as to the possibility of the former, but would not be surprised to see the later.

Is he going to wake up in the early morning hours tomorrow and crown himself President for Life? I seriously doubt it. I seriously doubt too many people involved with National Command Authority are very happy with the man or his policies so far.

I hate to try to talk all the ledge walkers out of their head spinning joy at the impending right wing dictatorship, but having seen people do exactly the same thing in anticipation of the coming left wing dictatorships (that have never developed) I feel obligated to point you folks towards some semblance of sanity.

It's not a question of hanging out on a ledge. There's nothing I can do if the guy blows up the world. While I have very strong doubts that Trump could destroy democracy in the United States, I do believe Trump can do a hell of a lot of damage.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I dont believe Trump has signed a single piece of legislation in 6 months of being President. Not a one. That is amazing when you consider his party controls both the House and the Senate. So, it's not like he even has the Republican party marching along with him. Nevertheless, Trump is weakening this nation and it will cost lives.
 
- Which other president has lied this much to his own voters?

Harding ?

I was feeling very despondent about the current U.S. political process but then I re-read Bill Bryson's One Summer: America, 1927 and compared to the mid to late 1920's, politics on a local, state and possibly even national level is as clean as a whistle.

Going back even further into the early to mid 19th century, no doubt things were even murkier with a smaller proportion of people eligible to vote and greater opportunity to curry favour. The current Trump Presidency, and possibly even the GOP as a whole may be somewhat unsavoury by our current, elevated, standards but possibly not so bad judged by historical standards, YMMV.
 
Harding ?

I was feeling very despondent about the current U.S. political process but then I re-read Bill Bryson's One Summer: America, 1927 and compared to the mid to late 1920's, politics on a local, state and possibly even national level is as clean as a whistle.

Going back even further into the early to mid 19th century, no doubt things were even murkier with a smaller proportion of people eligible to vote and greater opportunity to curry favour. The current Trump Presidency, and possibly even the GOP as a whole may be somewhat unsavoury by our current, elevated, standards but possibly not so bad judged by historical standards, YMMV.

The three questions are kinda linked. Although I'd be surprised to find Harding lying as much as Donald Trump, as well as his entire administration.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I dont believe Trump has signed a single piece of legislation in 6 months of being President. Not a one. That is amazing when you consider his party controls both the House and the Senate. So, it's not like he even has the Republican party marching along with him. Nevertheless, Trump is weakening this nation and it will cost lives.

He's done plenty even if the headline-grabbing Obamacare repeal and so-called Muslim travel ban are currently still works in progress. :mad:

Ditching the TPP, pulling out of the Paris Accord, getting a right wing Christian onto the SCOTUS, gutting financial and environmental protections, partially defunding Planned Parenthood and no doubt a host of smaller bills which further the GOP agenda have doubtless made it through without a great deal of fanfare.

Here's a list of 42 bills the house has passed and he has signed into law:

http://www.startribune.com/bills-pa...-by-the-president-so-far-this-year/432015273/
 
The three questions are kinda linked. Although I'd be surprised to find Harding lying as much as Donald Trump, as well as his entire administration.

You will find that Harding is doing nothing but lying
 
One of these things is not quite like the other........;)

- Which other president has lied this much to his own voters?

Although I'd be surprised to find Harding lying as much as Donald Trump, as well as his entire administration.

If we're going to expand criteria to include entire administrations then the current Trump administration may be mid-table at worst.
 
One of these things is not quite like the other........;)





If we're going to expand criteria to include entire administrations then the current Trump administration may be mid-table at worst.

Very VERY much doubt it. But, as I said, you are zeroing in on a single question. How about the others? Not to get side-tracked, the point of this exercise is to measure whether or not we've had an administration this deceptive, this anti-democratic, and that was helped into power by a foreign nation. The point is not to debate whether or not Harding lied more or less than Trump.

ETA: Reading up on Harding - as I probably should have before, given that it was inevitable that a half-term president from a hundred years ago would get dragged up to be tossed in front of Trump in a questionable act of "fairness" - I do not get the impression that he was known as a great liar. Trump is.
 
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Very VERY much doubt it. But, as I said, you are zeroing in on a single question. How about the others? Not to get side-tracked, the point of this exercise is to measure whether or not we've had an administration this deceptive, this anti-democratic, and that was helped into power by a foreign nation. The point is not to debate whether or not Harding lied more or less than Trump.

ETA: Reading up on Harding - as I probably should have before, given that it was inevitable that a half-term president from a hundred years ago would get dragged up to be tossed in front of Trump in a questionable act of "fairness" - I do not get the impression that he was known as a great liar. Trump is.

You have understandably picked three criteria on which the current administration seems to be performing historically badly but IMO there are certainly administrations that have been equally, if not worse, for the US.

Buchanan's complete unwillingness and/or inability to address the issue of slavery led to a Civil war, Coolidge was hardly even present as President, Grant's administration was notoriously corrupt, the list goes on.

Don't get me wrong, I thing Donald Trump is completely unqualified to be President, but I think in this modern day and age with a recent run of (largely) competent presidents subject to the glare of public scrutiny we tend to forget how bad some presidents were.
 
You have understandably picked three criteria on which the current administration seems to be performing historically badly but IMO there are certainly administrations that have been equally, if not worse, for the US.

Buchanan's complete unwillingness and/or inability to address the issue of slavery led to a Civil war, Coolidge was hardly even present as President, Grant's administration was notoriously corrupt, the list goes on.

Don't get me wrong, I thing Donald Trump is completely unqualified to be President, but I think in this modern day and age with a recent run of (largely) competent presidents subject to the glare of public scrutiny we tend to forget how bad some presidents were.

It might just be that we are now able to actually look around and look at how other people are doing it. Blatant corruption went out of fashion in the West sometimes during the last century. Trump is bringing it back big time.

Look, I can see that this is pointless, because my point isn't getting across. The point I'm trying to make is, this presidency isn't like the others before it. It's not like Bush's. It's not like Reagan's. It's not even like Nixon's. It's much, MUCH worse than either of those. Trump is making an enemy of democratic institutions, and the American people are becoming the casualties of this war against Democracy itself. People now have a choice. Fight back, or do nothing.

Fighting back can take many forms. First and foremost, it's imperative that congress is replaced in 2018. The current congress is acting more or less as stooges to the Kleptocrat in Kommand. They need to go.

If that doesn't work - if the US continues to be in the clutches of a tyrannical minority (because, let's face it, GOP voters are a minority of voters), other measures must be taken to preserve US democracy. It's that, or you let it go.

ETA: It really bothers me seeing people here go "ah well, you see, people said this and that about Bush, and that's just like the situation now". It bothers me because the people saying so are either dangerously blinded or malicious. There's just nothing like the Bush presidency in what we're looking at now.
 
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And the right-wing nuts were sure President Obama was going to institute martial law via Jade Helm 15.

The only thing that endures is that the folks that run around with their hair on fire turn out to be wrong.


Can I ask what would have to happen for you to believe that there is a problem?
 
It might just be that we are now able to actually look around and look at how other people are doing it. Blatant corruption went out of fashion in the West sometimes during the last century. Trump is bringing it back big time.

Look, I can see that this is pointless, because my point isn't getting across. The point I'm trying to make is, this presidency isn't like the others before it. It's not like Bush's. It's not like Reagan's. It's not even like Nixon's. It's much, MUCH worse than either of those. Trump is making an enemy of democratic institutions, and the American people are becoming the casualties of this war against Democracy itself. People now have a choice. Fight back, or do nothing.

Fighting back can take many forms. First and foremost, it's imperative that congress is replaced in 2018. The current congress is acting more or less as stooges to the Kleptocrat in Kommand. They need to go.

If that doesn't work - if the US continues to be in the clutches of a tyrannical minority (because, let's face it, GOP voters are a minority of voters), other measures must be taken to preserve US democracy. It's that, or you let it go.

ETA: It really bothers me seeing people here go "ah well, you see, people said this and that about Bush, and that's just like the situation now". It bothers me because the people saying so are either dangerously blinded or malicious. There's just nothing like the Bush presidency in what we're looking at now.

US democracy is working exactly as it's designed to to. The largest single homogeneous block of people have exactly the President they wanted. For sure it's not the majority but the opposition is fragmented (look at the Bernie Bros who couldn't bring themselves to vote for Hillary) which means that unless they can find candidates to unite behind then the largest single block of people will still wield disproportionate power.

Like I said in this, or another, thread. After the best part of a year moaning about Trump's selection as the GOP candidate and subsequent election as President I've had an epiphany. The issue isn't Donald J Trump or even the supine GOP which at best is insufficiently critical and at worst positively enables him. The real problem is that 40% of the U.S. electorate actually want someone like Donald Trump to be President. They actually want a boorish, ignorant, racist, xenophobic misogynist because that's the kind of person they can really get behind :(.

In other threads relating to subjects as different as gun control, religion, inequality, healthcare and education it has been noted that the US often behaves like a third world country with a (better than) first world economy. This could be another example of that kind of thing. Trump is like Zuma because the U.S. is a lot like South Africa....
 
US democracy is working exactly as it's designed to to. The largest single homogeneous block of people have exactly the President they wanted. For sure it's not the majority but the opposition is fragmented (look at the Bernie Bros who couldn't bring themselves to vote for Hillary) which means that unless they can find candidates to unite behind then the largest single block of people will still wield disproportionate power.

Like I said in this, or another, thread. After the best part of a year moaning about Trump's selection as the GOP candidate and subsequent election as President I've had an epiphany. The issue isn't Donald J Trump or even the supine GOP which at best is insufficiently critical and at worst positively enables him. The real problem is that 40% of the U.S. electorate actually want someone like Donald Trump to be President. They actually want a boorish, ignorant, racist, xenophobic misogynist because that's the kind of person they can really get behind :(.

In other threads relating to subjects as different as gun control, religion, inequality, healthcare and education it has been noted that the US often behaves like a third world country with a (better than) first world economy. This could be another example of that kind of thing. Trump is like Zuma because the U.S. is a lot like South Africa....

I think you are dead wrong. Sure, there is a percentage that wants someone like Trump, but that is vanishingly small. The problem, rather, is ingrained tribalism. This is something both sides are guilty of, but which one side takes to an extreme. People were willing to overlook all of Trump's many faults in order to vote for someone with an 'R' behind their name.

After the election we have seen a lot of justification and many many excuses, but it's rarely based upon agreement with what Trump is actually doing. Even one of our most vehement Trump apologists - and a right wing nutjob himself - has admitted to only voting for Trump for the SC pick.

In the end, very few wants a slow drift away from democracy. Sure, they might pine for the never-was time of the flowery fiftees, but even then there was an expectation that democracy was a good thing, and that people were supposed to follow the rules of the game. Trump is throwing all that away, and then lying about it. Many of the Trump voters are simply blatantly stupid, at least when it comes to politics, but many more are simply ignorant, because they have had their brains filled with poison by right wing 'media' and politicians.

What needs to happen is that Trump needs to be made an example of. He absolutely needs to be impeached, and then criminally prosecuted and thrown in jail should he be found guilty. People who voted for him need a metaphorical slap on the head in order to wake the **** up and look at what consequences catastrophic choices like voting for an authoritarian kleptocrat can have. This is why I say 2018 is so important. Right wing media is gathering strength, with local news being taken over more and more. Meanwhile, Trump's war on the real media is gathering momentum, and GOP congress critters are gerrymandering their states to lock them up for generations, while implementing restrictions on the minority vote. At the top of the judiciary, the Supreme Court is liable to be stacked with Trump men.

This is a bleak outlook to have, but it's what I genuinely feel is at stake. It's 2018 to restore democracy, or bust.
 
This is a bleak outlook to have, but it's what I genuinely feel is at stake. It's 2018 to restore democracy, or bust.



What's the over/under spread?


Hopefully, the rest of the rest of world will escape the worst results but I think the Don is right. Enough Americans want this. I believe that they want this because they are woefully ill informed, but I would say that, I'm a screaming, pinko, guardian reading socialist liberal.


I can at least hope that the rest of the world and particularly the UK, can watch the US implode and learn from it.
 
I think you are dead wrong. Sure, there is a percentage that wants someone like Trump, but that is vanishingly small. The problem, rather, is ingrained tribalism. This is something both sides are guilty of, but which one side takes to an extreme. People were willing to overlook all of Trump's many faults in order to vote for someone with an 'R' behind their name.

I had hoped that this was the case, then I had the misfortune to talk to my brother-in-law, his family and his buddies. They are white and a mixture of government employees (mostly police and prison service), military and veterans, small business owners and workers in a variety of industries. AFAIK all are high school graduates and many have bachelor degrees (so they're not unemployed or uneducated). A lot of them have grown up in rural areas and they're all second amendment enthusiasts.

They, to a man and woman, think that Donald J Trump is absolutely splendid. A best he will do everything he has claimed he will do but at worst he will get many "good" things done (like Gorsuch's appointment) and in the process will tweak the noses of liberal, ivory tower types like me.

IMO this is not atypical for people like them - and in the middle of the country there are an awful lot of people like them. Good people with a fundamentally different set of priorities, standards and values to me.

After the election we have seen a lot of justification and many many excuses, but it's rarely based upon agreement with what Trump is actually doing. Even one of our most vehement Trump apologists - and a right wing nutjob himself - has admitted to only voting for Trump for the SC pick.

Which for many people would be reason enough. He has paved the way for a generation of Christian, right-wing SCOTUS decisions.

In the end, very few wants a slow drift away from democracy. Sure, they might pine for the never-was time of the flowery fiftees, but even then there was an expectation that democracy was a good thing, and that people were supposed to follow the rules of the game. Trump is throwing all that away, and then lying about it. Many of the Trump voters are simply blatantly stupid, at least when it comes to politics, but many more are simply ignorant, because they have had their brains filled with poison by right wing 'media' and politicians.

I disagree, the largest single homogeneous block of voters got the candidate they wanted. You could argue that they were misinformed or underinformed but to be honest for most voters in most elections this has been the case.

Look at the media from 100 or 150 years ago and even today's media is pretty balanced. I guess it's easier to live in an echo chamber these days but then again I doubt whether my Grandad had much of a political spectrum among the miners he worked with back in the 20's and 30's

What needs to happen is that Trump needs to be made an example of. He absolutely needs to be impeached, and then criminally prosecuted and thrown in jail should he be found guilty.

Step 1 in that would be to find something he's actually guilty of, as opposed to being suspected or accused of. It's not immediately apparent what that could be. It seems than members of his campaign and his administration may have had improper contact with, or indeed colluded with the Russians but that has not been proven and it's not clear how dirty Trump's hands are.

He could also be guilty of obstruction of justice but it seems that the actions he took were entirely legal AFAIK although the motivations may be suspect.

People who voted for him need a metaphorical slap on the head in order to wake the **** up and look at what consequences catastrophic choices like voting for an authoritarian kleptocrat can have.

The U.S. is a democracy and I disagree with you. I think a large proportion of Trump voters actually wanted Trump (I have changed my mind on that, at the time I thought it was maybe 50/50 with party loyalty contributing equally - now I suspect it's closer to 80/20). I know it seems incomprehensible but that's the thing - groups of voters with completely different values to ourselves often appear incomprehensible.

As far as consequences go - my brother in law couldn't be happier. He feels he has a President who listens to, and understands, people like him.

This is why I say 2018 is so important. Right wing media is gathering strength, with local news being taken over more and more. Meanwhile, Trump's war on the real media is gathering momentum, and GOP congress critters are gerrymandering their states to lock them up for generations, while implementing restrictions on the minority vote. At the top of the judiciary, the Supreme Court is liable to be stacked with Trump men.

Yes, I agree with most, if not all of that, that's how the U.S. system has worked for a couple of centuries. Sometimes it's a little better than others but there's always been shadiness and compared to the 1960's, it's OK.

That doesn't mean anyone should be complacent or that abuses like gerrymandering and/or voter suppression should go unchallenged but neither is it the end of democracy in the U.S., they'll muddle through as they always have.

This is a bleak outlook to have, but it's what I genuinely feel is at stake. It's 2018 to restore democracy, or bust.

I think that's a little hyperbolic. The Democratic Party OTOH does need to shake itself out of its torpor, come up with some policies and candidates who will genuinely excite the electorate rather than relying on simply not being Trump or the GOP.
 
I had hoped that this was the case, then I had the misfortune to talk to my brother-in-law, his family and his buddies. They are white and a mixture of government employees (mostly police and prison service), military and veterans, small business owners and workers in a variety of industries. AFAIK all are high school graduates and many have bachelor degrees (so they're not unemployed or uneducated). A lot of them have grown up in rural areas and they're all second amendment enthusiasts.

They, to a man and woman, think that Donald J Trump is absolutely splendid. A best he will do everything he has claimed he will do but at worst he will get many "good" things done (like Gorsuch's appointment) and in the process will tweak the noses of liberal, ivory tower types like me.

That's a very small and rather tainted pool to draw statistics from. Close friends and families are likely to agree, as their situation is often similar and, like many other, they are often stood behind a 'leader' type who decides. Yet, even in this small subset, the - what I expect are the - true reasons for voting Trump emerges: tribalism.


IMO this is not atypical for people like them - and in the middle of the country there are an awful lot of people like them. Good people with a fundamentally different set of priorities, standards and values to me.

Uninformed and/or stupid people.


Which for many people would be reason enough. He has paved the way for a generation of Christian, right-wing SCOTUS decisions.

Yes, but my point is, the vote wasn't for Trump, but for the SC.


I disagree, the largest single homogeneous block of voters got the candidate they wanted. You could argue that they were misinformed or underinformed but to be honest for most voters in most elections this has been the case.

This is false. The larges single homogeneous block of voters did not get the candidate they wanted.

Look at the media from 100 or 150 years ago and even today's media is pretty balanced. I guess it's easier to live in an echo chamber these days but then again I doubt whether my Grandad had much of a political spectrum among the miners he worked with back in the 20's and 30's

This isn't right either. Media today has amalgamated into large blocks. Local news is owned by larger corporations which put their political slant on everything. Large publishing houses own it all. That was not the case 100-150 years ago.

There are exceptions to this. Hearst was such an exception, for example. But Hearst was blatant in his bias, and had many critics.


Step 1 in that would be to find something he's actually guilty of, as opposed to being suspected or accused of. It's not immediately apparent what that could be. It seems than members of his campaign and his administration may have had improper contact with, or indeed colluded with the Russians but that has not been proven and it's not clear how dirty Trump's hands are.

It is immediately apparent: obstruction of justice for the impeachment, and money laundering for the criminal charge.

He could also be guilty of obstruction of justice but it seems that the actions he took were entirely legal AFAIK although the motivations may be suspect.

How does it seem like that to you? I'm genuinely interested, because that's about 180 degrees from what it seems like to me.


The U.S. is a democracy and I disagree with you. I think a large proportion of Trump voters actually wanted Trump (I have changed my mind on that, at the time I thought it was maybe 50/50 with party loyalty contributing equally - now I suspect it's closer to 80/20). I know it seems incomprehensible but that's the thing - groups of voters with completely different values to ourselves often appear incomprehensible.

Like I said, I think you are dead wrong.

As far as consequences go - my brother in law couldn't be happier. He feels he has a President who listens to, and understands, people like him.

Sorry to say it, but your brother-in-law is an idiot, at least when it comes to politics.


Yes, I agree with most, if not all of that, that's how the U.S. system has worked for a couple of centuries. Sometimes it's a little better than others but there's always been shadiness and compared to the 1960's, it's OK.

It's as far away from ok as is possible without having fallen apart already.

That doesn't mean anyone should be complacent or that abuses like gerrymandering and/or voter suppression should go unchallenged but neither is it the end of democracy in the U.S., they'll muddle through as they always have.

It's the beginning of the end. It's extremely clear from where I'm standing.


I think that's a little hyperbolic. The Democratic Party OTOH does need to shake itself out of its torpor, come up with some policies and candidates who will genuinely excite the electorate rather than relying on simply not being Trump or the GOP.

That should be enough for any thinking person. But yes, the Democrats need to become smarter about this. We have seen that slightly less than half of the US voters are either stupid or completely locked in tribalism. These people are lost causes in my view and should not ever be pandered to. What's needed is to expand the electorate, bring in people who don't normally vote. I believe Trump's antics might just accomplish that. That's the sole hope I have in the current situation.
 
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