Israel's attack on the USS Liberty...

[davefoc]

wow

 

[Cleon]

Wow. If that information is accurate, I'll definitely have to rethink my POV on the subject.

 

[petra10]

I too started a thread on this subject on the 40th anniversary of the attack.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84427

And I was "shot down"
I still think there is something to this.

 

[WildCat]

I too started a thread on this subject on the 40th anniversary of the attack.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84427

And I was "shot down"
I still think there is something to this.

I bumped this one because it was the longest-running, and I wanted to keep it away from conspiracy theories, since I think it's beyond that.

Did you read the long Tribune article I linked to? Contains much new information from named primary sources. I don't know how long they keep their stories up before they archive them (and make you pay!) so read it free while you can. It's nice to read about this subject from a non-conspiracy site.

 

[a_unique_person]

New developments have come to light that I think settles it once and for all that there was a coverup here. And there's an excellent article in today's Chicago Tribune:

I think the only question left is why did Israel attack what it knew was an American ship, and why did the US cover it up?

The Israeli court of inquiry that examined the attack, and absolved the Israeli military of criminal culpability, came to precisely the opposite conclusion.

"Throughout the contact," it declared, "no American or any other flag appeared on the ship."

Reminds me of other courts of inquiry into West Bank and Gaza incidents.


Why? Haaretz had a recent article, (and it's impossible to go back in history on Haaretz, for some reason, my guess is they are a small, independent newspaper with not a lot of money), that Israel had just developed nuclear weapons, and didn't want the US interfering in the use of them.

 

[a_unique_person]

The transcript published by the Jerusalem Post bore scant resemblance to the one that in 1967 rolled off the teletype machine behind the sealed vault door at Offutt Air Force Base in Omaha, where Steve Forslund worked as an intelligence analyst for the 544th Air Reconnaissance Technical Wing, then the highest-level strategic planning office in the Air Force.

"The ground control station stated that the target was American and for the aircraft to confirm it," Forslund recalled. "The aircraft did confirm the identity of the target as American, by the American flag.

"The ground control station ordered the aircraft to attack and sink the target and ensure they left no survivors."

Forslund said he clearly recalled "the obvious frustration of the controller over the inability of the pilots to sink the target quickly and completely."

"He kept insisting the mission had to sink the target, and was frustrated with the pilots' responses that it didn't sink."

Nor, Forslund said, was he the only member of his unit to have read the transcripts. "Everybody saw these," said Forslund, now retired after 26 years in the military.

Forslund's recollections are supported by those of two other Air Force intelligence specialists, working in widely separate locations, who say they also saw the transcripts of the attacking Israeli pilots' communications.

One is James Gotcher, now an attorney in California, who was then serving with the Air Force Security Service's 6924th Security Squadron, an adjunct of the NSA, at Son Tra, Vietnam.

"It was clear that the Israeli aircraft were being vectored directly at USS Liberty," Gotcher recalled in an e-mail. "Later, around the time Liberty got off a distress call, the controllers seemed to panic and urged the aircraft to 'complete the job' and get out of there."

Six thousand miles from Omaha, on the Mediterranean island of Crete, Air Force Capt. Richard Block was commanding an intelligence wing of more than 100 analysts and cryptologists monitoring Middle Eastern communications.

The transcripts Block remembered seeing "were teletypes, way beyond Top Secret. Some of the pilots did not want to attack," Block said. "The pilots said, 'This is an American ship. Do you still want us to attack?'

"And ground control came back and said, 'Yes, follow orders.'"

So it's settled now?

 

[a_unique_person]

Survivor James M. Ennes, Jr., Exhibit 12
"Yet despite these things a few Americans seem to accept the preposterous claim that the attack was a mistake and that firing stopped with the torpedo explosion. One can accept and understand this attitude from an Israeli, as he would have a natural tendency to believe his country's version of events and to disbelieve contrary versions -- especially since he has no personal experience to draw upon. But how can an American disbelieve the virtually identical eyewitness reports of scores of surviving fellow Americans and accept instead the undocumented claims of the foreign power that tried to kill them? That is very difficult to understand or to accept.
The typical Israeli reaction is that we are liars or anti Semites, which of course we are not. We are American sailors honestly reporting an act of treachery at sea. At the very least we deserve your courtesy and understanding"

http://www.gtr5.com/about.htm

 

[The Fool]

Some content removed - the thread is old and lots of it was posted under different rules and so on so lets not be dragging up the more personal stuff from the past.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat

oh well, I wonder what will be the result of this. If I were family of the dead Sailors I would want to hear from any participating politicians from the time that are still alive...from either side....or maybe forget the talk and just explore thier body cavities with a baseball bat?

 

[Darth Rotor]

Some content removed - the thread may be old and lots of it was posted under different rules and so on so lets not be dragging up the more personal stuff from the past.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat

oh well, I wonder what will be the result of this. If I were family of the dead Sailors I would want to hear from any participating politicians from the time that are still alive...from either side....or maybe forget the talk and just explore thier body cavities with a baseball bat?

So, Admiral Moorer's observations that this incident was scandalous in how the Johnson administration dealt with it was pretty much spot on.

I seem to recall a WW II John Wayne movie called "They Were Expendable" that fits this scenario for all the wrong reasons. (PT boat skippers is the theme.) John Ford directed.

Thanks to the folks who provided the links. We can't undo the incident, but we can eventually find out where the cover up began. That's worth something, though I am not sure how to assign a value to it.

ETA: After reading a few of the pages, I noted redactions aplenty.

Unfortunately, they did not declassify all of the materials they hold. The redactions in the materials released are inexplicable, other than in support of the continuing cover-up.

I don't find that analysis unfair.

DR

 

[WildCat]

Thanks to the folks who provided the links. We can't undo the incident, but we can eventually find out where the cover up began. That's worth something, though I am not sure how to assign a value to it.

From the Chicago Tribune article:

J.Q. "Tony" Hart, then a chief petty officer assigned to a U.S. Navy relay station in Morocco that handled communications between Washington and the 6th Fleet, remembered listening as Defense Secretary Robert McNamara, in Washington, ordered Rear Adm. Lawrence Geis, commander of the America's carrier battle group, to bring the jets home.

When Geis protested that the Liberty was under attack and needed help, Hart said, McNamara retorted that "President [Lyndon] Johnson is not going to go to war or embarrass an American ally over a few sailors."

McNamara, who is now 91, told the Tribune he has "absolutely no recollection of what I did that day," except that "I have a memory that I didn't know at the time what was going on."

How convenient for you to develop a sudden case of amnesia McNamara! I'll never understand how people can take such things to their grave.

 

[Big Les]

Looks like we have a winner for the next "have there been any real conspiracy" thread. Mind you, a lot of the theories were totally out of left field and textbook CT. It just happens that this time, the basic suspicion seems to have been born out.

Even a blind squirrel finds the odd nut I suppose. CTists take note - this is the standard of evidence that we require to take things like this seriously. Not nitpicking at imagined or irrelevant discrepancies.

Not forgetting that the real story behind all this is desperately sad.

 

[a_unique_person]

Looks like we have a winner for the next "have there been any real conspiracy" thread. Mind you, a lot of the theories were totally out of left field and textbook CT. It just happens that this time, the basic suspicion seems to have been born out.

Even a blind squirrel finds the odd nut I suppose. CTists take note - this is the standard of evidence that we require to take things like this seriously. Not nitpicking at imagined or irrelevant discrepancies.

Not forgetting that the real story behind all this is desperately sad.

If you read any of the CT evidence on this, it's the usual blurry photos and other rubbish. The evidence of those there, who observed what happened, was pretty conclusive from the start.

 

[Big Les]

Fair point - I had actually had my mind somewhat closed by all the CT BS about false flag ops etc. It goes to show how CTs can actually be counter-productive where there is indeed something amiss (in this case a LIHOP scenario). They might even help any putative conspirators to get away with it for longer by distracting from the quality evidence and real issues. Rather like "psychic detectives".

I daren't venture to LCF - are they making a big deal out of this re 9/11?

 

[The Fool]

Fair point - I had actually had my mind somewhat closed by all the CT BS about false flag ops etc. It goes to show how CTs can actually be counter-productive where there is indeed something amiss (in this case a LIHOP scenario). They might even help any putative conspirators to get away with it for longer by distracting from the quality evidence and real issues. Rather like "psychic detectives".

I daren't venture to LCF - are they making a big deal out of this re 9/11?

very true les.....Whenever I see claims of "government coverup" I think loose change or some other bunch of imaginative nerds deciding that the Martians are behind it. In this case it was always going to come out in the end but it appears that if you can assure politicians that they will not have to face the consequences for 40 years then it is all systems go with coverups.

So where to from here? will the US public demand action...I doubt it personally, I think the 40 year method has worked.

 

[davefoc]

very true les.....Whenever I see claims of "government coverup" I think loose change or some other bunch of imaginative nerds deciding that the Martians are behind it. In this case it was always going to come out in the end but it appears that if you can assure politicians that they will not have to face the consequences for 40 years then it is all systems go with coverups.

So where to from here? will the US public demand action...I doubt it personally, I think the 40 year method has worked.

It seems like that right now. I have known about this story for many years and new information about it is something that interests me. But the American media must think that people like me are in the tiny minority given their complete failure to cover the story.

I haven't seen a mention of it on any of the news channels, on Huffington Post, on Slate, on Salon, drudgereport or the LA Times. It is amazing. I think some Israeli sites have picked up on it and that's about it. I wouldn't have noticed the article except for wildcat's link.

 

[a_unique_person]

It seems like that right now. I have known about this story for many years and new information about it is something that interests me. But the American media must think that people like me are in the tiny minority given their complete failure to cover the story.

I haven't seen a mention of it on any of the news channels, on Huffington Post, on Slate, on Salon, drudgereport or the LA Times. It is amazing. I think some Israeli sites have picked up on it and that's about it. I wouldn't have noticed the article except for wildcat's link.

The anti semitic MSM is all over it....not.

 

[The Fool]

The anti semitic MSM is all over it....not.

LOL....maybe a front page spread on little green footballs?

 

[david carmichael]

Swing & a miss, R Mackey....

1)The pilots knew they were attacking the USS Liberty...target study...if Egypt had had one of those "moon dish" antennas in their fleet it would have been a "day-one" priority target known to every Israeli pilot.

2) Guns capable of bombarding El Arish are so huge that the ships are ENGINEERED around the guns...the pilots could see small .50 caliber machine guns BUT MISS COMPLETELY the huge guns capable of bombarding offshore

3) They have lied about Kursa Flight's origins...2.75 inch rockets were used in the attack on the USS Liberty... no claimed munition could have blown out the porthole that exploded into LLoyd Painter's chest...

4) Kursa was not returning from Combat Air Patrol Station (dogfight)with 60 +% of their fuel remaining & rockets attached...can't go supersonic with rocket pods attached so dogfighting is out of the question.

They were NOT running out of fuel as claimed by Cristol


they were dispatched from Ashdod to attack the Liberty specifically as were the Motor Torpedo boats


5) BUT MAINLY---- A. Jay Cristol references the Kursa Leader to Kursa Wingman tapes("Look out for the masts!!) and provides the Royal Leader to Royal Wingman tapes.



They don't talk about Sunday picnics up there during an attack... it is "do you see what i see"...look for the wakes made by other ships in the area which stick out like comet's tails (none)...they discuss the wingman's covering/flanking position as the leader attacks.

...and there is NO conversation that could have gone on between Kursa Leader(Yiftzah Spector) & Kursa Wingman that could not have correctly identified the USS Liberty...

...which is why the transcripts were never released EVEN THOUGH they released Royal Flight transcripts...

But, I suppose..... Israel of course, could release them todayyyy, correct RMackey???

Every Fighter Pilot would chortle in contempt at any "Kursa Leader-to-Kursa Wingman" transcript.




So now to the readership & also to Stephen Wright...

Now that you know the facts....look at how someone has intentionally/unintentionally attempted to obscure the truth by reading
what is below in the quoted letterbox.

What claimed munition was it that blew the porthole into LLoyd Painter's chest, R Mackey...pro-Zionist Liberty Researcher, Mike Weeks has refused to answer

Far be it from me to inject some sanity back into this thread, but since I don't have a clue how the Richfield Ohio Police Department fits into this and the only person who knows seems incapable of coherent expression, let me try something different...

Some time ago in the Politics forum, WildCat brought to my attention some actual breaking evidence in the USS Liberty story. Not hocus-pocus altered photos and such, but good ol' investigative legwork. Post is here.

The news story there should not be treated as iron-clad proof, since it depends on some unidentified sources and is thus not repeatable, but I found it quite plausible, good enough for me to consider as the leading theory. If the story and my interpretation of it are correct, a rough outline of events is as follows:

• In the heat of battle, Israeli warplanes accidentally attack a United States vessel (the Liberty)
• Shortly thereafter, pilots realize their mistake and report its true identity to controllers
• A low-level controller realizes that this mistake could be Very Bad and makes a snap decision -- destroy the evidence as quickly as possible
• The controller orders pilots to resume the attack
• The pilots, confused, argue with the controller but eventually carry out a second, half-hearted attack
• After the second attack, pilots have no remaining doubts about the target's identity, report this to control, and break off the attack on their own initiative
• Senior Israeli officers soon learn of this and try to squelch it, concerned that such an act might make them appear reckless, and cost them international support at an extremely critical time (viz. while engaged in war)
• American officials also learn of this act -- either through restricted but official channels or through our own intelligence services -- and also decide that keeping it quiet favors our long-term goals (after all, it isn't like we're going to war with Israel because of an isolated blue-on-blue event)

If this is true, then the USS Liberty is, indeed, an international conspiracy and coverup carried out willingly by the United States Government. Yes, it can and does happen.


But.

The conspiracy isn't all that exciting. This isn't a conspiracy to carry out some dastardly deed. This is spur-of-the-moment damage control to CYA, after somebody else made a terrible, but all too human, blunder.

One could argue that the actions of the US and Israeli governments were short-sighted. It is possible that, even had the IDF held a press conference five minutes later, announcing: "We accidentally attacked a US ship, twice, killing many on board, and officers in our military reacted badly after the fact. We accept full responsibility and promise to make full recompensation to the victims and the United States." Perhaps nothing would have happened. The international community might have just accepted it as one of the awful things that happens in a war. The United States has done its own share, shooting down our own helicopters, strafing British Army, bombing embassies by mistake, and so on. It happens. So they may have played it too safe by conspiring to quiet it until after the fighting had stopped. That's a political discussion.

There is, however, absolutely no evidence that the event was premeditated. Likewise, supposing the wild-eyed speculation about doctored photos and floating masts and different hull lines and so on is true, what does it mean? Is there any possible theory that such "anomalies" support? I can't think of any. This proves only one thing -- that the anomalies are the head of the person seeing them.

Same principle applies to the Truth Movement. Without a hypothesis, all the anomalies in the world amount to nothing. And while real conspiracies exist, they just aren't that exciting. Nobody goes to such fantastic lengths to pull off who knows what, it just isn't done. Too risky, and no reward. Period.

 

[Dragoonster]

This one is worse than most because so many people died. But it’s also the kind of thing that happens in war, where a modern soldier is more likely to die from friendly fire than from the enemy.

The real issue is why it’s still controversial after 40 years.

From what I know, it's still controversial for four reasons:

1. The obvious, it's at least in part pushed by anti-Israel or anti-semitic persons.
2. The incident appears on face to be very hinky, at best overly aggressive on the parts of that particular Israeli command.
3. There hasn't been a satisfying (or appropriately skeptical) US government inquiry.
4. Some survivors of the incident, actual US sailors, are very critical of points 2) and 3)


Personally I'm on the fence. If I fault anything it's with how the incident was handled immediately afterwards, it would've made things a lot easier now. Compare that to the Vincennes incident which did have a credible (IMO) inquiry, along with a believable, indeed critical answer.

In short I don't think critics of the incident belong in the Conspiracy Theory (capital letters) camp. They seem more like Kennedy Assassination cters. There are serious problems, serious questions about a very dubious incident.

Or are like me, whose main criticism/question is whether our response to it was appropriate to Israel as it would have been to say, if Syria had "mistakenly" shot the crap out of a US vessel at the time claiming it was an Israeli freighter. I question the objectivity of scrutiny.

 

[Dragoonster]

Incidentally, I had never heard of this incident until about 10 years ago. Until I had I fully supported Israel in their measures against Palestine, viewing Netanyahu and other hawks as noble hero types. It was in reading about it I started to look at other Israeli issues more objectively; even if it was a true mistake I was curious at the lack of interest or at least awareness of it, from the US populace and government. Even if I used it more as such than it deserves, it at least made me more objective on Israel issues (I hope).

It jump-started or greatly accelerated an entirely new range of skepticism for me, that of Middle East foreign policy.