Israel's attack on the USS Liberty...

a_unique_person said:
From a survivor

http://zgrams.zundelsite.org/pipermail/zgrams/2003-June/000499.html
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AUP, I am hardly an Israel supporter (as I said on another thread, I'm a non-Zionist Jew). But you do yourself no good, and you certainly don't represent yourself well, if you quote from Zundelsite. Ernst Zundel is a well-known Holocaust denier and neo-Nazi. While the information may be accurate, there's no way to know when it comes from someone who likes to make reality up as he goes along.

An analogy might be talking about geology and throwing in a quote from icr.org. Yeah, it might be accurate, but it's not the most reliable source in the world.
 
renata said:





If these inquiries concluded that is was an accident or even "gross negligence", what should have happened, in your opinion?
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Well, clearly, we should have taken Isreal out.
 
AUP, I am hardly an Israel supporter (as I said on another thread, I'm a non-Zionist Jew). But you do yourself no good, and you certainly don't represent yourself well, if you quote from Zundelsite.

Indeed so. But then again, AUP is simply showing his real colors: blame the jews no matter what... even if you have to quote a neo-nazi holocaust denier to do so. This is hardly a surprise, since AUP is quite sympathetic to the neo-nazis. They both ant to see israel destroyed and the jews killed.

By the way, Zundel also believes that UFOs are secret Nazi craft that are launched from secret bases below the earth's hollow poles; he once had a plan (which never materialized, of course) to "expose the truth" by flying to the poles in a 747 jet with a swastika painted on its tail, so that the secret operators of the base will know he's a friend.

Quite a "source" you've got there, AUP. I'd say that if you are reduced to quoting Zundel to "support" your conspiracy theory, you might as well give up and admit you were wrong.

While the information may be accurate, there's no way to know when it comes from someone who likes to make reality up as he goes along.

OF COURSE it's accurate! It BLAMES THE JEWS! How can that POSSIBLY be wrong???
 
JamesM said:

Zundelsite?! Do you fancy quoting some of it, or finding another link, I'd rather not click on a holocaust-denial website.

Edit: I see Cleon has made the same point, rendering this post redundant. Sorry for the duplication.
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Hey, last year demon and AUP used Institute of Historical Review as their source that USS Liberty was attacked with premeditation.
At the time AUP argued that just because IHR was a propaganda site with holocaust denying materials it did not mean USS Liberty information from it was not correct. He refused to acknowledge that the slant of the site and other content there tainted information obtained from it. Nova Land posted some of his usual remarkably well thought out posts on the issue on page 2 of that thread, I highly recommend them now, as the issue came up again.

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9644
 
"Hey, last year demon and AUP used Institute of Historical Review as their source that USS Liberty was attacked with premeditation."

Not true but why am I not suprised?.
I used the site in question becasue it contained quotes from mainly Jewish writers ( those awful self-hating Jews) who had the integrity to speak out about influential Jewish lobbies, something I was discussing with Skeptic at the time.
It was not used as a source for discussing the USS Liberty.

The source I used for the USS Liberty in that particular thread was:

http://home.cfl.rr.com/gidusko/liberty/
 
demon said:
"Hey, last year demon and AUP used Institute of Historical Review as their source that USS Liberty was attacked with premeditation."

Not true but why am I not suprised?.
I used the site in question becasue it contained quotes from mainly Jewish writers ( those awful self-hating Jews) who had the integrity to speak out about influential Jewish lobbies, something I was discussing with Skeptic at the time.
It was not used as a source for discussing the USS Liberty.

The source I used for the USS Liberty in that particular thread was:

http://home.cfl.rr.com/gidusko/liberty/
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You are correct, my mistake. You used IHR in the thread about USS Liberty as a support for your allegation about a Jewish Lobby.

My apologies for my error.
 
JamesM said:

Zundelsite?! Do you fancy quoting some of it, or finding another link, I'd rather not click on a holocaust-denial website.

Edit: I see Cleon has made the same point, rendering this post redundant. Sorry for the duplication.
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I just did a quick google, but did not check to see who owned the site. I do not go to holocaust denying sites for my information, as a matter of course. If you want to disregard the information, please do so.
 
I just did a quick google, but did not check to see who owned the site.

You're up to your usual standards of "research" on "israeli crimes", I see: google "israel AND crimes AND evil AND USS Liberty" (or its equivalent) and just post whatever comes up as "evidence".

This is seen by the usualy "quality" of your "proofs": web sites that range from holocaust denying loons, to badly formatted personal pages without any references, to semi-"official" Palestinian propaganda sites. Obviously, you couldn't care less who puts it up, as long as they blame the jews.

So, answer me this, AUP: if your "research" of your "sources" for israeli "crimes" is SO sloppy and SO negligent you don't even notice when your "sources" are holocaust denying paranoid loons... why should we take a word you or your "sources" say seriously?

I do not go to holocaust denying sites for my information,

You just did.

as a matter of course.

...but when those are all the sources google brings up, what ELSE can you do? After all, the jews MUST be blamed SOMEHOW...
 
Skeptic said:
I just did a quick google, but did not check to see who owned the site.

You're up to your usual standards of "research" on "israeli crimes", I see: google "israel AND crimes AND evil AND USS Liberty" (or its equivalent) and just post whatever comes up as "evidence".

This is seen by the usualy "quality" of your "proofs": web sites that range from holocaust denying loons, to badly formatted personal pages without any references, to semi-"official" Palestinian propaganda sites. Obviously, you couldn't care less who puts it up, as long as they blame the jews.

So, answer me this, AUP: if your "research" of your "sources" for israeli "crimes" is SO sloppy and SO negligent you don't even notice when your "sources" are holocaust denying paranoid loons... why should we take a word you or your "sources" say seriously?

I do not go to holocaust denying sites for my information,

You just did.

as a matter of course.

...but when those are all the sources google brings up, what ELSE can you do? After all, the jews MUST be blamed SOMEHOW...
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I found three quick links, ( a bit slack, I know), one of which is a denying site. What is your actual problem? Why is it that it all comes down to you accusing me of hating you?
 
JamesM said:

One plane did see the markings and the Liberty was correctly identified. However, after the watch at Israeli Naval HQ changed, all that information was removed from the control board.
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I can't accept that, at the end of a shift when a war is on, everyone cleans off the white board, cleans up their desks and goes home, with no formal handover of the situation and events in progress. The only way I could accept that is that it is so stupid it must be true.

That is also why the pilot transcripts are pretty worthless, they are only obeying orders. Those who gave the orders are the ones to be held accountable.
 
I can't accept that, at the end of a shift when a war is on, everyone cleans off the white board, cleans up their desks and goes home, with no formal handover of the situation and events in progress.

So? Considering the fact that a). you've never even been to the middle east, let alone israel, and b). you've never even been a soldier, let alone in the high command, you are, more or less, the least qualified person in the world to comment on what "could" or "could not" have happened in an israeli high command center. What you said about what you can or cannot accept "really happened" is totally meaningless. It is about as important as Hoagland claiming that he "cannot accept" NASA's saying that the "face on Mars" is a hill.
 
a_unique_person said:



I just did a quick google, but did not check to see who owned the site. I do not go to holocaust denying sites for my information, as a matter of course. If you want to disregard the information, please do so.
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Yes but you see ,you expect others to give you the benefit of the doubt while you constantly refuse it to others.

Also, you have a tendancy to attack those that question your references.

Now that you have confessed that your references are products of quick google search ( you haven't even read what you posted) how do you think that we must deal with this.

What would you do if you caugh me posting something that questionable.

I wasn't surprized to tell you the truth because I have noticed that when you get into a debate you get so absorbed and passionate and the only thing that matters to you is to say a painful thing so as you have the last word.

The truth doesn't matter at all, all it matters is the impression, otherwise you'd spend sometime reading what you quote.

You remind me of the fanatic Orthodox Jews, sometimes.
 
Cleopatra said:


Yes but you see ,you expect others to give you the benefit of the doubt while you constantly refuse it to others.

Also, you have a tendancy to attack those that question your references.
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I think I only attack those that attack me.



Now that you have confessed that your references are products of quick google search ( you haven't even read what you posted) how do you think that we must deal with this.
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I did read what I posted, but did not look at the context of the site that contained it. As I posted later, it was also on another non-holocaust denying site.



What would you do if you caugh me posting something that questionable.
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Do I answer hypothetical questions?



I wasn't surprized to tell you the truth because I have noticed that when you get into a debate you get so absorbed and passionate and the only thing that matters to you is to say a painful thing so as you have the last word.
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Not so.



The truth doesn't matter at all, all it matters is the impression, otherwise you'd spend sometime reading what you quote.

You remind me of the fanatic Orthodox Jews, sometimes.
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I was brought up to be a good, fanatical Catholic. Even after I renounced Catholicism, I noticed that the mode of thought was still there, that is, absolutism, black/white. I think I have tried to leave those ways of thinking behind. However, having been brought up with such doctrinaire teachings, it does make me contemptuous of those who revel in them.

However, believe it or not, I do enjoy reading what people such as yourself and James have to say. It restores my faith in human nature to see rationality and learning at work. I think you are right about trying to rise above the unedifying spectacle that passes for debate here sometimes, and I respect that.

However, it did amaze me that a statement by a survivor, which I took at face value, was instantly used to attack me because I did not look at the web site it was on. As found out, the same statement is on another web site, which has nothing to do with holocaust denying.
 
Yes Israel is a Social Democracy of sorts, but so what? Why should that matter? Do you think people put those types of ideologies above human life? Some people do, but any decent person does not.
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Ah yes but lets not mention any of the people killed or opressed by under Muslim theocracies and monarchies. Tell me Malachi, where would you rather live, Israel or any of those Muslim states?

And that being the case shouldn't we give people who at least are good to their own more trust and support then people who regularly opress their own?


I think human lives have been lost, and there is a bit of guilt on both sides: however there is far more guilt on the genocidal and tyrannical muslims in my opinion then on the democratic Israelis who are merely trying to protect themselves in a world of ruthless and fanatical enemies.
 
From http://www.ussliberty.org/

WE HAVE THE SMOKING GUN!
Liberty deniers continue to insist that, despite all the evidence, the attack on our ship must have been a mistake. "Israel would not do such a thing to its best friend," they insist. They persist in presenting silly arguments such as "poor memory," "fog of war," and "transmitters were 1KC off frequency for a few seconds." No serious researcher to our knowledge has ever bought into those stories, yet they persist.
Recent claims by Liberty deniers, however, has brought a number of insiders out of the closet. Several were revealed in the June 2003 issue of Naval Institute Proceedings, which brought supporting statements from such senior intelligence authorities as Oliver Kirby, Admiral Bobby Inman, former CIA Director Richard Helms, General John Morrison and many others of unimpeachable stature. Yet the deniers continue to deny reality.

We have known for years that communications between the attacking Israeli jets and their headquarters were intercepted as the aircraft approached our ship. The Israeli pilots were clearly told by their controllers to find and quickly sink "the American ship" which was USS Liberty. Those communications were almost simultaneously translated and broadcast from a US Air Force C130 near the scene to an intelligence site at Crete where they were sent to Washington and to other stations as "Critical Intelligence," the fastest and most secure means available. Known as CRITICs, these reports routinely arrived in the White House, State Department and Pentagon within ten minutes or less.

Thus Liberty's attackers were caught in the act and their treachery was known to the highest levels of the US government even before the attack was completed.

Now, thirty-six years later, people who saw those reports as they occurred find that they can remain silent no longer.

Presented here is the first of several such reports to come. This one, from former Air Force intelligence analyst Stephen Forslund, is presented in his own words.
http://www.ussliberty.org/forslund.htm

And here, a statement from former Air Force analyst James Ronald Gotcher, who saw the same intercepts at an Air Force intelligence station in Vietnam.
http://www.ussliberty.org/gotcher.htm

Meanwhile, statements are being prepared from others who saw the same reports. Those will soon be presented in these spaces.

Stay tuned!

http://www.ussliberty.org/smoking.htm
 
I don't have much to add to what has been said. I have followed this story for years. I first heard about it when I read an article by the commander of the Liberty more than twenty years ago.

For years I believed the Israeli's intentially attacked the Liberty. A few years ago I did a review of the various articles on the web about it and decided that in fact it probably was an accident, but with a lot of evidence to suggest that it wasn't. Amazingly enough, almost exactly Malachi's conclusion.

This link by AUP suggest a plausible scenario.
http://www.ariga.com/peacebiz/edits/liberty.htm

Clearly the American government and the Israeli government have successfully blocked full disclosure about the incident. But that doesn't mean the truth is that the Israeli's intentionally killed Americans.
 
demon said:
From http://www.ussliberty.org/

WE HAVE THE SMOKING GUN!
Liberty deniers continue to insist that, despite all the evidence, the attack on our ship must have been a mistake. "Israel would not do such a thing to its best friend," they insist. They persist in presenting silly arguments such as "poor memory," "fog of war," and "transmitters were 1KC off frequency for a few seconds." No serious researcher to our knowledge has ever bought into those stories, yet they persist.
Recent claims by Liberty deniers, however, has brought a number of insiders out of the closet. Several were revealed in the June 2003 issue of Naval Institute Proceedings, which brought supporting statements from such senior intelligence authorities as Oliver Kirby, Admiral Bobby Inman, former CIA Director Richard Helms, General John Morrison and many others of unimpeachable stature. Yet the deniers continue to deny reality.

We have known for years that communications between the attacking Israeli jets and their headquarters were intercepted as the aircraft approached our ship. The Israeli pilots were clearly told by their controllers to find and quickly sink "the American ship" which was USS Liberty. Those communications were almost simultaneously translated and broadcast from a US Air Force C130 near the scene to an intelligence site at Crete where they were sent to Washington and to other stations as "Critical Intelligence," the fastest and most secure means available. Known as CRITICs, these reports routinely arrived in the White House, State Department and Pentagon within ten minutes or less.

Thus Liberty's attackers were caught in the act and their treachery was known to the highest levels of the US government even before the attack was completed.

Now, thirty-six years later, people who saw those reports as they occurred find that they can remain silent no longer.

Presented here is the first of several such reports to come. This one, from former Air Force intelligence analyst Stephen Forslund, is presented in his own words.
http://www.ussliberty.org/forslund.htm

And here, a statement from former Air Force analyst James Ronald Gotcher, who saw the same intercepts at an Air Force intelligence station in Vietnam.
http://www.ussliberty.org/gotcher.htm

Meanwhile, statements are being prepared from others who saw the same reports. Those will soon be presented in these spaces.

Stay tuned!

http://www.ussliberty.org/smoking.htm
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Actual tapes and transcripts from the day of the event have been released which indicate that the attack was not intenional and your smoking gun is a 'report' with claims of interceptions that may or may not exist written several years after the fact?
 
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