Israeli Election

Ok. Mind you,though,Capel Dodger you will address Liberalism,you won't get away with that.
I'm against it. By default. Remember, I'm not a philosopher so I don't have the rigorous definition to mind. I'm in favour of liberality, but that's not to the point. (Pour from the elbow, not from the wrist, I say.) But I don't favour libertarians. Liberty is good. Libertines often aren't. You see the kind of hand I'm playing with. It will require finesse.

The idea of Peres joining Kadima will make me giggle during the day. I posted a couple of months ago about his interview in "Hard Talk" on BBC. When the journalist asked him how would he feel if Ariel Sharon signed the peace treaty instead of him a grimace of pain appeared on his face, just for some seconds and then the old fox replied :" If it will be for peace,I won't mind at all, I will be the one that will applaud". :)

Yeah right!
Always the bridesmaid, never the bride. Consistently not quite up to it. Prizes dangled, but always just out of reach. And he always whines about each failure. I've no time for the man, never have. Sussed him long ago.

Personalities do matter a lot in Israeli politics,that's an astute observation.
Hardly astute, it's the elephant in the middle of the room. Zionism has been an ego-fest from Day One. It started as a very small world, and it's still a small one. With a strong strain of Ashkenazi scholasticism, a strong strain of Socialist scholasticism (there's an overlap) and a strong strain of secular nationalist puerilism, all stirred about by the real world happening around it, the outcome will be fractionalist. Charisma, ambition and ego then become all-important.
 
Enough already, Shimon!

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3176191,00.html
It's enough, Shimon. Please spare us. Read books, think, drink coffee with writer Amos Oz, write your memoirs. Go to international conferences in beautiful places, give the occasional interview to renew our faith in our perverse actions and our great hope in hi-tech.

There's a lot for an intelligent, healthy senior statesman to do in his last years. But please. Have mercy on us, Shimon. It's enough. Your time has passed.
This guy has a better opinion of Peres than I do, but he seems to be finding it hard work. I'm starting to seriously wonder whether Peres will choose the bright lights of ministerial status without power yet again rather than this sensible advice.
 
I'm against it. By default. Remember, I'm not a philosopher so I don't have the rigorous definition to mind. I'm in favour of liberality, but that's not to the point. (Pour from the elbow, not from the wrist, I say.) But I don't favour libertarians. Liberty is good. Libertines often aren't. You see the kind of hand I'm playing with. It will require finesse.

You want to be careful, it is a fine line between fineesse and subtle. Any infractions and the subtle police will be on to you.
 
You got to love aup's and CD's whining: "Oh, dear, the fascistic imperialist murderous thugs from the illegitimate zionist entity that must and will be destroyed are being rude to us."

So sorry.
 
Today in the "fractionalist strain of Ashkenazi scholasticism, Socialist scholasticism and nationalist puerilism of zionism all stirred about by the real world happening around it"...:rolleyes:

Peres291105AP185.jpg


Shimon Peres posing in Barcelona on Tuesday before a 'Match for Peace' between FC Barcelona and a joint Israeli-Palestinian team. (AP)

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/651436.html

As Israel's major politicians awaited word from Shimon Peres over whether he would leave the Labor Party for Ariel Sharon's new Kadima faction, the elder statemen had warm words for the prime minister - and none for Labor.

"The real change is not in the Labor Party. The real change is in the Likud Party," Peres said Tuesday in Barcelona.

Peres is poised to leave the Labor Party, his political home for 60 years, Labor officials said Tuesday, though Israel's elder statesman has not made a formal announcement yet.


Meanwhile on the other side of the fence.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051129/ts_nm/mideast_dc_4

Abbas291105REUTERS160.jpg


29 Nov, 2005 - With a parliamentary election less than two months away, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas halted his Fatah party's primaries in the West Bank on Tuesday, a day after suspending them in Gaza amid violence and fraud.

Abbas's failure to hold orderly primaries to pick his party's candidates raised new questions about his chances of carrying out a long-delayed parliamentary election as scheduled on January 25 in the occupied West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

The upheaval began on Monday when Fatah halted its primaries in Gaza after gunmen stormed into some polling stations, shooting in the air and complaining the vote was unfair. On Tuesday, Abbas also suspended voting in the West Bank amid what officials said were dozens of irregularities.
 
Straight in with aspersions on my honesty. How very lawyerly. Of course I know as much as I appear to. It's only your assumption that I don't that leads you to conclusion that I am a master of simulation, ergo I don't have the knowledge. It's called "begging the question".
So far I have met many people that deep in their hearts wished they had studied Law. Among them, you are by far my favorite. :)
Over half-a century since the First Knesset there's a generational shift. Sharon (and Peres) are the last of the Ashkenazi Founding Fathers, and they are not long for this planet. Tempus Fugit.
So, what does this say to us? Your observation is correct, hey it's self-evident but the what is exactly the argument? The only argument I see here is you claiming that the difference in these elections will be in the... atmosphere.
The foundation ambitions are not those of the later generations. Their experience is of Israel as it has been and is, not of theorizing what Israel will be once the job gets done.
True but as you have said the founders actually learned what Israel has really been and this is exactly what has caused the ideological collapse.
And then there are the New Russians of the 90's, no longer disoriented, tongue-tied and assuming that doing the crap-work is transitional. Peretz's Labour speaks to their concerns far more than Peres's Labour. (Which, IMO, is why Peretz saw off Peres and his besuited imps.) A Labour Party of the Histadrut, not against it. Political power as an extension of union power. Lenin would be so proud.
Har har. I am buffled with your certainty regarding the Russians. What have you been reading?
Of course the Histadrut doesn't control the Haganah/IDF as it did in Ben-Gurion's day, but you can't have everything. And, absent a military coup, it may not matter that much. We're not talking Russia in 1917, after all.
So, this is another observation, where is the argument?

Look Capel Dodger, I am not here to produce arguments for both of us. I can do that but not for a...cake!

This election comes at a crucial time, in many ways. Perhaps uniquely crucial. The Israeli electorate surely appreciates that. And I'm pretty sure that they will elect a transitional government - Kadima and Labour, with Sharon as PM - which will make a final settlement with the Palestinians and only at the next election really consider what Israel is going to be like.
The scenario sounds reasonable but not very encouranging. I don't believe that Ariel Sharon will go as far as it's needed with the peace process. I am impatient. The whole issue must be settled with no kidding this time from both sides. The issue must be settled for good.

More, later. Maybe.
 
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So far I have met many people that deep in their hearts wished they had studied Law. Among them, you are by far my favorite. :)
So, what does this say to us? Your observation is correct, hey it's self-evident but the what is exactly the argument? The only argument I see here is you claiming that the difference in these elections will be in the... atmosphere.
It's more in the mindsets of the people that are contending for power. There's been a dwindling set of Founders pretty much monopolizing power until now, almost as an entitlement, but Peretz indicates a shift. (Peres's brother expressed the sense of entitlement when he lambasted Peretz recently.) It's also a shift away from the Pioneer image, the Socialist Realist hunk with hoe in one hand and Sten in the other. The kibbutz movement has only a spark of it left. What remains of it is in the religious settler movement, vastly altered.

True but as you have said the founders actually learned what Israel has really been and this is exactly what has caused the ideological collapse.
It's not credible that the Founders intended to have a country like today's Israel 50 years down the line. Not just in terms of territory, but in terms of social cohesion, quality of life, political stability, security and sustainability. They were intending something else, and they failed to achieve it. Time to move aside and let a new generation without the old inhibitions try to make the best from what actually exists.

Har har. I am buffled with your certainty regarding the Russians. What have you been reading?
I hear a lot of things. :cool:

There's been enough in online Haaretz over the last decade to get a sense of what's been happening in the Histadrut and Labour. Peretz's win can be seen as the rejection of Peres and the class he represents, which is not the proletariat. This is not the collapse of Labour ideology, it's a re-emergence.

So, this is another observation, where is the argument?
Does it always have to be about argument? It's just an observation. It may prompt someone else's observation or comment. Or not. Whatever.

The scenario sounds reasonable but not very encouranging. I don't believe that Ariel Sharon will go as far as it's needed with the peace process. I am impatient. The whole issue must be settled with no kidding this time from both sides. The issue must be settled for good.
I think that'll be a very common attitude. Sharon may be riding high now, but over the next few months he'll have to convince people that he really can deliver. There will surely be a demand for more detail than "According the road-map" nullities.
 
...a strong strain of Ashkenazi scholasticism, a strong strain of Socialist scholasticism (there's an overlap) and a strong strain of secular nationalist puerilism, all stirred about by the real world happening around it, the result will be factionalist

Er... yeah... whatever you say...

As expected, the real reason CD is all of a sudden interested in israeli elections is not the elections themselves, but to use them to bash israel: to "prove" that (what else?) the country's leaders / people are insane and/or stupid and/or evil, not knowing what the "real world" is like.

First, I have to admire how CD manages to so intimitely understand the inner thoughts, desires, and ambitions of israelies, based on nothing more than their ethnic origin (ashkenazi, sefaradi, etc.) and religious affiliation; it is doubly amazing that he manages to discern so finely the awful truth(TM) from 5000 miles away without knowing a word of Hebrew.

Second, you got to love his "proof" of this theory of his about what the israeli electorate is like. He confidently predicts that, if he is correct, "The results would be fractionalist" and "charisma will become all-important". That's some bold prediction, CD--if one ignores the fact that the results of israeli elections are ALWAYS "fractionalist", and Charisma is ALWAYS important in them.
 
First, I have to admire how CD manages to so intimitely understand the inner thoughts, desires, and ambitions of israelies, based on nothing more than their ethnic origin (ashkenazi, sefaradi, etc.) and religious affiliation; it is doubly amazing that he manages to discern so finely the awful truth(TM) from 5000 miles away without knowing a word of Hebrew.

I would note that Capel Dodger in Wales is about 2,500 miles from jersulama while you (IIRC) are in the NYC region, or 5,500 miles away. Just to be pedantic. ;)

Second, you got to love his "proof" of this theory of his about what the israeli electorate is like. He confidently predicts that, if he is correct, "The results would be fractionalist" and "charisma will become all-important". That's some bold prediction, CD--if one ignores the fact that the results of israeli elections are ALWAYS "fractionalist", and Charisma is ALWAYS important in them.

So Capel Dodger is right?

Seriously, CD and Cleo are doing something rather interesting. They are having a strong disagreement and intense discussion without personal insults and are staying right on the chosen topic for nearly two pages without it being hijacked.

Let them continue it. I for one am learning from both.
 
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I would note that Capel Dodger in Wales is about 2,500 miles from jersulama while you (IIRC) are in the NYC region, or 5,500 miles away. Just to be pedantic. ;)
There's a considerable overlap between Israel and the parts of North London I lived in for many years - if pressed very hard to define myself, I would still say "North Londoner". (Other parts are more Irish than Dublin. Gotta love metroplises.) It's a fairly common joke that, if the Administrative Area of Jerusalem keeps expanding at the rate it has been, it'll encompass North Finchley by 2030. NY a few years later.

I doubt it's much different in NY. But I know you were being whimsically pedantic.

So Capel Dodger is right?
Was there ever - EVER - the slightest doubt about that? :cool:
 
More gratuitous Peres-kicking :

Former Labor chair will support PM in election

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/652170.html

"This is a difficult day for me in which I ask myself: What is the central issue standing before the state of Israel in the coming years and at present? I have no doubt that it is the unavoidable combination of peace and diplomatic advances. I ask myself how I can contribute in the coming years, and the answer is by advancing the peace process that will contribute to a thriving economy and social justice."

"It was not easy but I made the choice and decided," Peres, 82, said on his decision to leave the party he has been a member of for 46 years.

Peres, who has held every major Cabinet position, lost the race for Labor chairman three weeks ago to Amir Peretz.
"How can I contribute" my arse. "How can I stay in the limelight and convince myself my life actually mattered?" more like. If he takes a position in Sharon's government, and becomes other than Sharon's poodle, always targeted for the ****-storm of blame if it goes wrong but with Sharon's statue in every square if it goes right, well, I'd be wrong.

Love the career resume :

1974 - Peres faces Yitzhak Rabin in ... loses ...

1977 - Rabin's government falls due to desecration of Sabbath ... Peres faces Rabin loses ...

1977 - Rabin resigns from Labor chairmanship due to scandal over dollar account. Peres leads Labor party in elections ... loses.

1984 - Peres serves as prime minister from 1984-1986 in national unity government, and is replaced ...

1988 - Peres loses ...

1992 - Peres is appointed foreign minister in Rabin's second tenure as prime minister, where the two sign the Declaration of Principles with the Palestinians. Peres, Rabin and Yasser Arafat are awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. [At least by then he could pull strings in Sweden, if not in Israel]

1996 - Benjamin Netanyahu and the Likud defeat Peres [aka, Peres loses]

2000 - Peres loses in presidential race ...

2005 - Peres vies for Labor chairmanship against Amir Peretz and Benjamin Ben-Eliezer; Peretz defeats Peres by a margin of 42% to 40%

Let's face it ...
 
Likud seem to have gone into headless-chicken mode.

Senior party members, including Benjamin Netanyahu, Silvan Shalom, convene following polls showing party set to gain only 10 Knesset seats in March general elections; decide on ‘Vote Sharon – get Peres’ as campaign slogan

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3177382,00.html

That's desperate. Their only potential market is those who reject compromise, and Sharon has already compromised in Gaza. There are enough rejectionist parties without Likud. They're living in the past.

The Likud's situation is so bad, that even Shas overpasses it in the poll with 11 Knesset seats
What is Likud's Unique Selling Point without a Big Name such as Begin or Sharon? It's only ever been a hook to hang a coalition on, and the Big Name was the hook. What's it's role now?

If Netenyahu's a hook, he's one of those joke rubber ones that things fall off. His suit is emptier than Peres's, which is seriously vacuous.
 
2-miles wide

Why is Hezbollah resistance to Israeli occupation terrorism? Referring to anyone who resists Israeli expansionism and regional hegemony as "terrorist" does your argument no favours at all.

Resisting Israeli occupation and expansionism is a huge deal for Hezbollah (a terror organization supplied, financed and backed politically by Iran and Syria):

ShebaaFarms170305.jpg

http://www.faoa.org/journal/shebaa.html
The scale of this map is hard to read, in Arabic.
The entire Shebaa zone covers such a miniscule area (less than two miles across) it is just ludicrous to define it as Israeli expansionism! It is a strategic military sector, on the edge of the Golan Heights, and is not recognized by the International UNIFIL as Lebanese territory. That the Hezbollah say it is Israeli-occupied Lebanese territory is meaningless, since they also claim that all of Israel itself sits on occupied Palestinian lands. Israel to the Hezbollah is an illegal entity, and their goal is to fight Israel, no matter what.

So, Shebaa Zone was captured in the Six Day War from Syria.
In another few generations, after the Syrians renounce their state of war with Israel, and the Hezbollah fades from the scene, and the Iranian people put their mad-mujadeen mullahs aside in favor of a secular non-belligerent democracy, just maybe then, Israel will see fit to move out of that occupied Zone. Arik and Shimon will be long gone by then, it is safe to assume.

Meantime, tough luck to the terrorists.
 
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Resisting Israeli occupation and expansionism is a huge deal for Hezbollah (a terror organization supplied, financed and backed politically by Iran and Syria):

The entire Shebaa zone covers such a miniscule area (less than two miles across) it is just ludicrous to define it as Israeli expansionism!
You accept that it is not within the bounds of Israel. The miniscule nature of the area doesn't mean that it isn't an expansion. It's a piece of territory that Israel wants :
It is a strategic military sector, on the edge of the Golan Heights...
and so Israel takes it. Because Israel can. But it is a miniscule area. How strategic can it really be? Syria says it's part of Lebanon - they're not claiming it. The Lebanese are claiming it because it was administered as part of Lebanon when Lebanon and Syria were French sous-states. People that own land there have Lebanese documents to prove it. The border between the French and British Mandates, at that particular point, was never officially mapped and defined (cost was an element). The upshot is that the people that live around there reckon it's part of Lebanon (created by the French out of their Mandate in 1926, IIRC, and not properly mapped then either; cost was an element). But :

and is not recognized by the International UNIFIL as Lebanese territory.
Are you absolutely sure that you want bring in UN agencies as evidence as to where Middle Eastern borders lie?

Shouldn't the views of the people that live there be more important than UN inheritance of Mandate powers?
That the Hezbollah say it is Israeli-occupied Lebanese territory is meaningless, since they also claim that all of Israel itself sits on occupied Palestinian lands.
I agree with them that Israel is an agressive act in itself, and the Shia Lebanese felt that before 1982. but where are the examples of Shia Lebanese assaults on Israel before Sharon's invasion? For the Shia Lebanese, the focus is on the Maronite predominance - or potential predominance. Israel features as a subsidiary issue. During the period of Israeli occupation, it was the immediate issue, but that period is over - except in one miniscule fragment. (The presence of the PLO was a subsidiary issue to the Israeli one - without Israel there would have been no Palestinian expellees to murky up an already complicated situation.)

Not everything is about Israel. But the existence of Israel has had effects.

Israel, by holding on to this miniscule territory that is in its own salient, a strategic cost not gain, keeps the hostilities going. Why?

Israel to the Hezbollah is an illegal entity, and their goal is to fight Israel, no matter what.

How do you know? What if Israel just pulled out of the Sheba'a Farms? Why haven't they tried it? It's a miniscule territory, and what would they lose? If Hezbullah continued to attack Israel you'd have an argument, and so would Israel. Israel gave up all the rest of Southern Lebanon they'd occupied for 18 years. Why not give this up as well?

Perhaps Peres could try the idea on Sharon.
 
Because Israel can. But it is a miniscule area. How strategic can it really be? Syria says it's part of Lebanon - they're not claiming it.
You're kidding right? I mean you really are saying with a straight face that the Golan Heights is not strategic. Ok. Allow me to enlighten you.

From 1948-67, when Syria controlled the Golan Heights, it used the area as a military stronghold from which its troops randomly and often shelled Israeli civilians in the Huleh Valley below, forcing Israeli civilians into bomb shelters.

In the years before the Six-Day War, the Arab countries continually refused to acknowledge the legitimacy of the Jewish state, and Arab nationalists led by Nasser called for the destruction of Israel. Egypt and Jordan supported Palestinian fedayeen (guerrillas), who attacked troops and civilians in Israeli territory, then retreated to the Egyptian-controlled Gaza Strip or the Jordanian-controlled West Bank. From its Golan Heights region, Syria regularly shelled Israeli farms. For its part, Israel refused to accept Jordan’s control of Jewish holy places in East Jerusalem. Israel also kept tensions high by responding to Arab incursions with reprisals on Arab territory.

Encarta Encyclopedia
The irony is Capel says the Golan heights are not strategic and even Encarta Encyclopedia says "Israel also kept tensions high by responding to Arab incursions"...yes...how dare Israel try to stop Syrian shelling of it's civilians by taking the Golan heights and how dare Israel keep tensions high by responding to Arab incursions... :rolleyes:

The world is insane.
 
If Capel Dodger is talking about the entire Golan, then I agree with you, ZN, Israel would be foolish to leave there without rock-solid guarantees that do not appear to be forthcoming from the Syrian regime. (and please pick your jaw up from the floor, it's scaring the ladies). ;) :p

But I think (as I read it) that he is talking only about the area known as Sheeba Farms, which is a small and does not impact significantly on the Golan.

I'll let the Welshman reply further.
 
Are we seeing the end of Likud as a serious player?


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`Rebels' blamed for Likud's fall in polls
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/652780.html

The Likud's crisis is compounded by the fact that its top members are all busy waging their primary campaigns, which means that they are attacking each other instead of leading the party. Next week, the committee that is running the party until a new leader is chosen on December 19 will meet to discuss methods of damage control. Among other things, it plans to commission in-depth surveys of Likud voters in an effort to determine the reasons for the party's free fall in the polls and potential sources of new voters. The party is hoping that once it has a leader, it will begin gaining ground in the polls again.
It seems the only reason the party exists is as a vehicle for some personality.

Senior Likud officials lashed out at disengagement opponents yesterday for causing Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to leave the party, saying that Likud's nosedive in the polls shows that Sharon is taking almost the entire party with him.



Shoulda, woulda, Likuda.
 
You covered it. I don't want to get derailed.

Concur. You've done pretty well (along with Cleo) in keeping on-topic with the Israel election.


(I'm not a Welshman. I live in Wales. May seem a small point but I have no religion, no ideology and no nation. And don't want any.)

Well, whatever you are, start saving for that airline ticket in 2007 for TAM5. We can discuss the other requirements as necessary.
 

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