Israeli Army has Doubts

[a_unique_person]

http://msnbc.com/news/994931.asp?0cl=c3

There appears to be a revolt brewing in the IDF. Pilots, Generals and troops on the ground are all questioning the ethics of the brutality they are inflicting on Palestinians. It is being done in the name of the religious zealots who want all of the ancient Biblical lands, but won't fight themselves.

They don't want to do it beacuse it harms innocent people, is for a senseless cause, and brutalises their own selves.

HE NOTICED the grandmother first, her creased face so blanched with terror that she appeared on the verge of collapse. A middle-aged couple huddled close by, trembling.
“They could be my parents,” Hakkak, the 22-year-old son of an Israeli poet, recalled thinking. In that split second of recognition, he said, “you really feel disgusting. You see these people and you know the majority of them are innocent and you’re taking away their rights. You also know you must do it.”

As the Israel Defense Forces enter a fourth year of battle with the Palestinians, the most dominant institution in Israeli society is also embroiled in a struggle over its own character, according to dozens of interviews with soldiers, officers, reservists and some of the nation’s preeminent military analysts.

Officers and soldiers have begun publicly criticizing specific tactics that they consider dehumanizing to both their own troops and Palestinians. And while they do not question the need to prevent terrorist acts against Israelis, military officials and soldiers are speaking out with increasing frequency against a strategy that they say has forsaken negotiation and relied almost exclusively on military force to address the conflict.

 

[a_unique_person]

AN ARMY’S MYSTIQUE
Cpl. Mati Milstein was sweaty and bored — extremely bored, as he recalled. He was halfway through an eight-hour shift at a Gaza Strip checkpoint near a Jewish settlement when he spotted a car approaching. A Palestinian man and his young son were inside.
Milstein, his coffee-colored eyes set in a face that seemed all sharp angles, trained his M-16 rifle on the father and ordered him out of the car. He remembered that the “young son watched in horror.”
The soldier peered inside the trunk. The father and his boy were probably returning from the beach and were no security threat, Milstein told himself.
“But I wasn’t finished,” Milstein later wrote in a Jewish newsletter. “At gunpoint, I ordered the father to open the hood and show me the engine, open the glove compartment, lift up the front seats, crawl into the back and show me whatever was stuck between the rear seats, open his shopping bags, empty his pockets.”

Then, with the man’s identity card in his pocket, Milstein ambled over to his shaded and fortified checkpost and gossiped with a colleague, keeping his M-16 trained on the father and son, who remained standing under the wilting sun.
“I held them for 20 minutes — because I could,” he recalled. “Then I let them go because I got bored with the game.”
Milstein, an American who moved to Israel and joined the army four years ago, said he discussed the incident with no one — not with fellow soldiers nor with his parents back in Santa Fe. “We tend to keep those experiences within us,” he explained, echoing the feelings of almost every soldier interviewed. “It’s very personal. We might prefer to forget what happened.

From "A Mind in Prison", p93. It seems relevent.

At one of the stops (on the light rail), a few careworn figures wearing yellow Star of David badges sneaked into the car. They did not dare enter the cabin, but stood on the small platform next to the door. Their entire behaviour seemed to be dictated by only one wish - not to be noticed.

The cruelty against these defenseless people struck me as painfully as the story of the old Jew whom the Nazis had thrown out of the window during Kristallnacht. These weary figures, I thought, must have lived in this state of anxiety ever since that fateful night. This was worse than murder, this was violation of the soul, this was torture!

 

[Mr Manifesto]

I realise this is a really crude analogy, and I don't want too much to be read into it, but I am reminded of the cycle of abuse that occurs between parent and child: The parent abuses the child, who goes on to abuse their child. It looks like a similar thing is happening here: The empowered nation (Europe, pre-Nazi) abuses the disempowered (Germany, Pre-Nazi) leading to the newly empowered nation abusing the disempowered (Nazis/Jews/Gypsies/etc) and now we have the Israelis abusing the Palestinians.

Well, it's probably a crap analogy, but I thought I'd float the idea anyway.

 

[Mycroft]

HE NOTICED the grandmother first, her creased face so blanched with terror that she appeared on the verge of collapse. A middle-aged couple huddled close by, trembling.
“They could be my parents,” Hakkak, the 22-year-old son of an Israeli poet, recalled thinking. In that split second of recognition, he said, “you really feel disgusting. You see these people and you know the majority of them are innocent and you’re taking away their rights. You also know you must do it.”

The situation is very hard on everyone. The IDF is called upon to do hard police work, and not everyone is suited for it. We can hope for an end to the intifada and perhaps some real effort from the Palestinian-Arab leadership to put an end to terror, and the situation can improve.

At one of the stops (on the light rail), a few careworn figures wearing yellow Star of David badges sneaked into the car. They did not dare enter the cabin, but stood on the small platform next to the door. Their entire behaviour seemed to be dictated by only one wish - not to be noticed.

The cruelty against these defenseless people struck me as painfully as the story of the old Jew whom the Nazis had thrown out of the window during Kristallnacht. These weary figures, I thought, must have lived in this state of anxiety ever since that fateful night. This was worse than murder, this was violation of the soul, this was torture!

Interesting choice of quotes. Tell me, do you think these Jewish commuters were so timid because they were afraid of being delayed on their journey for 20 minutes?

 

[a_unique_person]

I realise this is a really crude analogy, and I don't want too much to be read into it, but I am reminded of the cycle of abuse that occurs between parent and child: The parent abuses the child, who goes on to abuse their child. It looks like a similar thing is happening here: The empowered nation (Europe, pre-Nazi) abuses the disempowered (Germany, Pre-Nazi) leading to the newly empowered nation abusing the disempowered (Nazis/Jews/Gypsies/etc) and now we have the Israelis abusing the Palestinians.

Well, it's probably a crap analogy, but I thought I'd float the idea anyway.

IIRC, it has been shown that many child abusers were themselves abused as children. The notion of a 'package' of violence moving from one group of people to another is a good one. What is important is people realising what is happening to them, and stop it. This article appears to show that this is indeed the case. One can only hope the sentiment moves on to those in policy making areas.

 

[Cleopatra]

I realise this is a really crude analogy, and I don't want too much to be read into it

Your request is accepted and it will be respected. I have a request too. If I persuade you with my arguements, you won't use those analogies in this forum again.

Do we have a deal?

 

[JamesM]

Well, it's probably a crap analogy, but I thought I'd float the idea anyway.

If it was, for example, British, American, Australian, or Jordanian soldiers occupying those territories and manning roadblocks, are you saying that there would not be similar accounts? Or are there similar traumatic events in their histories which would lead them to act in that way?

Assuming there had been no 9/11, but America had still invaded Iraq, do you suggest that we would be seeing less reports of, for example, families being shot at roadblocks? Surely this is an inevitable part of conflict and invasion, and whether you think it's justified or not, it does not require the Holocaust as a causative factor.

 

[a_unique_person]

I think it would be unusual if there was no backlash to the treatment of Jews in WWII.

However, the extremists seem to have won the day. Count Bernadotte, a man who went out of his way to save Jews from the Nazis, was assasinated by Zionist terrorists because they believed he would get in the way of their quest for a state of Israel.

With Sharon in power and people who won't even join the army urging it on to help them evict those living in the West Bank and Gaza.

Human nature being what it is, though, those in the IDF are questioning the wisdom of the job they have been given.

Gratuitous violence and humiliation are vastly different to just maintaining peace and a military presence, however.

 

[tamiO]

I have solved some of these problems this morning (in my mind)

If the IDF all were on camera and this footage was being streamed onto webcams where everyone could tune in, maybe the soldiers would be less tempted to abuse their authority and terrorise innocent people for fun.

I feel that these things happen more frequently because the soldiers are not objective and there are no objective observers to keep them from acting out their hatred and frustrations on innocent people.

Just thought I'd throw this out there. What do you think?

 

[a_unique_person]

The IDF has been intent on making sure that people do not find out what they are up to. For example, the Jenin "massacre". After the UN concluded that they did not know if there was a massacre or not, because they were not allowed to investigate fully, they IDF used this statement as proof there was no massacre.

However, this approach cannot stop the members of the IDF themselvles from knowing what is going on.

 

[crackmonkey]

What a revisionist history of Jenin... there was no massacre. Jeez - some people.

 

[tamiO]

What a revisionist history of Jenin... there was no massacre. Jeez - some people.

Finally, someone who knows what happened in Jenin! You were there, right crackmonkey? Tell us what you saw.

I have no idea what happened in Jenin, I was not there. The UN was not allowed to investigate properly, so all I know is the two sides of the story. I want to know the third side.

 

[a_unique_person]

What a revisionist history of Jenin... there was no massacre. Jeez - some people.

I am not saying there was. I am talking about being open and transparent.

 

[demon]

Mr Manifesto
"Well, it's probably a crap analogy, but I thought I'd float the idea anyway."

It`s not a crap analogy at all.
Very fitting considering the history of the much vaunted Jewish persecution. Sums up the perverse nature of the Zionazis very well ie. the repression and bullying of a much weaker victim.
The number of children murdered by the IDF just adds an extra unfortunate but fitting layer to the analogy.

 

[Cleopatra]

Hi demon

No sleep? Go to bed

 

[Cleopatra]

Mr. Manifesto

Will you reply to my question or shall I proceed to explain you why your analogies apart from crude are totally wrong?

 

[Mr Manifesto]

Mr. Manifesto

Will you reply to my question or shall I proceed to explain you why your analogies apart from crude are totally wrong?

Sorry- I thought it was a rhetorical question. No, you have a deal- shoot.

 

[Cleopatra]

Mr. Manifesto

Since yesterday evening, I spent some hours browsing Yahoo and Google News plus the site of Amnesty International, trying to see which of the conflicts around the world could remind you of the Holocaust and the Nazi Era.

In Amnesty International Headlines from Yahoo, you will see various accusations concerning violation of human rights in Muslim Countries mostly . When it comes to Israel there is always the matter of the Fence. Interestingly, among the 152 countries in which violations of Human Rights occur on a daily basis, Israel is the only country in which the civilians face real dangers of massacre on a daily basis.

Israeli citizens are those who live with the daily fear of a terrorist attack and yet Israel is reported for violations that have to do with legalistic matters of the Occupation( freedom in movement, the right to work, the fence, the issue of citizenship).
In conflicts all around the world various attrocities take place and yet you claim that only when it comes to Israel, Nazis come to your mind.

Unique posts a report about an episode in a check point and then dares to compare this episode with an "image" from the Nazi period. The people who wore the Star of David didn't have the same luck with the Palestinians at the check point and not only that, with comments like the one Unique makes they are humiliated and violated for once more, even after their death but we know Unique, we haven't met him yesterday.

What makes you believe that if the Australian Army occupied the West Bank far less attrocities would occur? From which collective trauma suffered the Americans for example when they were performing their war crimes in Vietnam?

 

[a_unique_person]

Mr. Manifesto

Since yesterday evening, I spent some hours browsing Yahoo and Google News plus the site of Amnesty International, trying to see which of the conflicts around the world could remind you of the Holocaust and the Nazi Era.

In Amnesty International Headlines from Yahoo, you will see various accusations concerning violation of human rights in Muslim Countries mostly .

As I have said before. If you want a debate on whether other countries should improve their human rights records, such as many Muslim countries, you won't get it here. I think we would all agree that these countries should improve. Eg, Saudi, Syria, Malaya. I have condemned Mahatir Mohammed for his acts and his stance, but have noted that at least he is not getting worse, but appears to be mellowing in his old age by calling for violence to be stopped in the ideological battle he sees he is having with the Jews.

When it comes to Israel there is always the matter of the Fence.

It is not a fence, it is a wall, and it is being used to steal more land.

Interestingly, among the 152 countries in which violations of Human Rights occur on a daily basis, Israel is the only country in which the civilians face real dangers of massacre on a daily basis.

Israeli citizens are those who live with the daily fear of a terrorist attack and yet Israel is reported for violations that have to do with legalistic matters of the Occupation( freedom in movement, the right to work, the fence, the issue of citizenship).
In conflicts all around the world various attrocities take place and yet you claim that only when it comes to Israel, Nazis come to your mind.

I saw an interview with Israelis at a coffee shop after a suicide bombing. The people clearly were suffering strees. But they also acknowledged that both sides are suffering, that both sides are also tenacious, and will not give in.

Palestinians never know, from day to day, when they will be shot at, arrested, humiliated, have their land taken, their home destroyed. There is no legal process. It is just summary action. And this is the reality they face on a daily basis.

Unique posts a report about an episode in a check point and then dares to compare this episode with an "image" from the Nazi period. The people who wore the Star of David didn't have the same luck with the Palestinians at the check point and not only that, with comments like the one Unique makes they are humiliated and violated for once more, even after their death but we know Unique, we haven't met him yesterday.

The point I was making was that the humiliation is a reasoned part of the checkpoint process, and that this author saw humiliation as a huge crime against humanity. The Palestinians are not killed, for the most part, but they are kept in daily fear of their lives, as they know they can be shot at for just going to work their farms, or made to feel worthless and less than human for just travelling.

When you make someone feel like they are not human, they may not act with humanity.

What makes you believe that if the Australian Army occupied the West Bank far less attrocities would occur?

It begs the question, would the Australian army perform this role? In East Timor, there was a recent military investigation because some soldiers were accused of violating the dead body of a terrorist. The IDF does not seem to have the same standards.

From which collective trauma suffered the Americans for example when they were performing their war crimes in Vietnam?

Collective trauma can be just one reason for brutality. In the US, the fear and paranoia appear to be a cultural thing, ref" Bowling for Columbine. However, you are correct, all armies are associated with violence. It appears to be part of the deal when you train people to kill to the best of their ability. Perhaps part of the problem is that the US has such large and heavily armed 'Reserve' forces. The Australian armed forces, eg, would only have regulars acting as pilots. The Americans accused of shooting up innocent people in Afghanistan, against orders, were reservists.

As I noted, there are many in the IDF who do not like what the IDF is doing, and what being in the IDF does to them. At least there is free speech in Israel that allows such thoughts to be aired, as distinct from Nazi Germany, where such actions would have brought instant death.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
IIRC, it has been shown that many child abusers were themselves abused as children. The notion of a 'package' of violence moving from one group of people to another is a good one. What is important is people realising what is happening to them, and stop it. This article appears to show that this is indeed the case. One can only hope the sentiment moves on to those in policy making areas.

Excuse me, this article shows what?

The article cites two examples of Palestinian-Arab “hardships” at the hands of Israelis. In one, a soldier abuses his power by searching a car even more carefully than the situation requires and them makes the Palestinian-Arab man wait around for another twenty minutes just because he can. In the other, a group of soldiers search the wrong house and scare its inhabitants.

Exactly what do these instances show?

The first is clearly an abuse of power, but it’s also a pretty mild one. It happens all the time in police departments all around the world, I doubt that you can find a police officer that’s been on the job for any length of time who can’t think of a time when he went a little too far “just because he could” and felt guilty about it later. That’s normal human behavior.

In the second example, they searched the wrong house. Yeah, we wish we lived in a perfect world where that sort of thing didn’t happen, but we don’t and it does. Again, police all over the world sometimes stop the wrong people or search the wrong houses. It’s happened to me, it’s happened to people I know, I bet it happens in Australia.

These are not examples of brutality.