Israeli Apartheid?

Yes he most certainly is. Marc39 is an Israeli Atrocity denier and an Israeli Apartheid Denier.


The question of calling it Apartheid for inflammatory reasons. On the contrary. There's no need to inflame something that inflames itself by it's sheer abhorrence.

But if we like we can always use the term 'racism' instead.

Are you like 10 years old? My 13 year-old is more mature and intelligent (and, well-mannered, but, that's more a matter of good parenting). What is the problem? Maybe it's my mistake for assuming you are an adult. My bad.

This is your second infraction in this thread for personalizing the issue. Keep your attacks to the argument, not the person making it. Further breaches of the rules may result in suspension.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: prewitt81
 
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There's a whole lot of disingenuousness surrounding the apartheid Israel disinformation program, which is the latest in a long series of libels hurled at Israel in an effort to demonize, marginalize and, finally, destroy Israel.

Not at all. our criticisms are legitimate. But it's clear by your final words above that you are suffering from the paranoid delusion that the world is out to destroy Israel.

This is nonsense. Those of us who criticize Israel here are criticizing real atrocities, real persecutions and real acts of racism.

The level of raw, visceral hatred directed at Israel is quite breathtaking and apartheid is merely a pretext for justifying people's animosity toward Israel.

nonsense.

At first, Israel, itself, was accused of apartheid, but, when that didn't fly, principally due to Israel's history of advocating human rights and being the only democracy in the region, the detractors had to figure out another approach for vilifying Israel: Hey, let's throw the "Israel has apartheid in the West Bank" plate of spaghetti against the wall and see what sticks. Bingo! It's sticking, although, much like the spaghetti against the wall, false and defamatory linkage of apartheid and Israel is very distasteful.

Its' sticking because it's backed up by reality.

On the other hand the crap thrown at the wall by the Zionist Propaganda Machine quickly slides off because it's nonsense.
 
Never at a loss for words.:) Anyone who believes anything even close to apartheid exists in the West Bank (Gaza used to be called apartheid, too, but, when Israel withdrew from Gaza, it punched a hole in that apartheid balloon) is lacking a true appreciation for the horrors of apartheid and probably has never been to the West Bank. Ask yourself a simple
question: If Israel truly wanted to impose apartheid on Arabs, why just in the West Bank and not in Israel, itself?

I don't buy the apartheid rhetoric, but I have a very hard time turning a blind eye to a lot of what seems to be official Israeli policy vis-a-vis the Palestinians.

Oh well. Back to my comfy arm-chair.
 
There's a whole lot of disingenuousness surrounding the apartheid Israel disinformation program, which is the latest in a long series of libels hurled at Israel in an effort to demonize, marginalize and, finally, destroy Israel. .

I cannot speak for others, but it is my intention to SAVE Israel...not destroy it.
 
If Israel truly wanted to impose apartheid on Arabs, why just in the West Bank and not in Israel, itself?

Israel tolerates and even advocates for racism in education, housing, and employment. It is completely legal for folks to discriminate against Arabs in all of these sectors of society.

Israel could end this racism tomorrow...by banning discrimination based on religion or ethnicity or race. But for some, strange reason, Israel REFUSES to ban racism.

Why is that? How can a people that has suffered sooo greatly from racism and intolerance, allow it within their own walls????

What does this say about us as a people? What does this say about us as victims? Have we learned from the past or just seek to usurp it????

:confused:

And please, Marc, stop the denial.
 
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Israel tolerates and even advocates for racism in education, housing, and employment. It is completely legal for folks to discriminate against Arabs in all of these sectors of society.

Israel could end this racism tomorrow...by banning discrimination based on religion or ethnicity or race. But for some, strange reason, Israel REFUSES to ban racism.

Why is that? How can a people that has suffered sooo greatly from racism and intolerance, allow it within their own walls????

What does this say about us as a people? What does this say about us as victims? Have we learned from the past or just seek to usurp it????

:confused:

And please, Marc, stop the denial.

He's temporarily moved on from denial and is starting the name calling now. see above.
 
I don't buy the apartheid rhetoric, but I have a very hard time turning a blind eye to a lot of what seems to be official Israeli policy vis-a-vis the Palestinians.

Oh well. Back to my comfy arm-chair.

You might be too young to remember, or maybe you do remember, when Israel captured the West Bank and Gaza "territories" in '67. Given the current situation of poverty in the West Bank and squalor and hopelessness in Gaza, it probably would surprise you to know that in the 1970's, specifically during the so-called Israeli "occupation", Gaza and the WB, combined, represented the 4th fastest growing economy in the world. Under Israel's "oppressive" occupation that the Arabs decry, (It's what they live for), Gaza's and the WB's economies were ahead of Singapore, Hong Kong, and Korea, and well ahead of Israel. The number of Palestinians working in Israel rose from 0 in 1967 to 66,000 in 1975 and 109,000 by 1986, which was 35% of the employed population of the WB and 45% in Gaza. Nearly 2,000 industrial plants, employing almost half of the work force, were established in the territories under Israeli "occupation".

While Israel "occupied" the territories, mortality rates in the WB and Gaza decreased by more than two-thirds between 1970 & 1990, while life expectancy rose from 48 yrs in 1967 to 72 yrs in 2000 (compared with an average of 68 yrs for all the countries of the Middle East and North Africa). Advanced Israeli medical care reduced the infant-mortality rate of 60 per 1,000 live births in 1968 to 15 per 1,000 in 2000 (in Iraq the rate is 64, in Egypt 40, in Jordan 23, in Syria 22). And under a comprehensive program of inoculation, childhood diseases like polio, whooping cough, tetanus, and measles were eradicated.

In contrast, before Israel's "occupation" of Gaza and the WB, life expectancy was low; malnutrition, infectious diseases, and child mortality were high, and the level of education was very poor. Prior to the 1967 War, fewer than 60% of all male adults had been employed, with unemployment among refugees up to 83%. Within a brief period after the war, Israeli occupation had led to dramatic improvements in general well-being, placing the population of the territories ahead of most of their Arab neighbors.

During the "occupation", Palestinians saw tremendous improvements in their standard of living. By 1986, 92.8% of the population in the WB and Gaza had electricity 24 hrs a day, as compared to 20.5 % in 1967; 85% had running water in buildings and homes, as compared to 16% in 1967; 83.5% had electric or gas ranges for cooking, as compared to 4% in 1967; same for refrigerators, televisions, and cars.

These dramatic advances in the lives of Palestinians took place under Israeli "domination". However, importantly, the improvement in their socioeconomic place in the world happened while Israel had a "hands-off" policy in the political and administrative areas of their lives. Even as the PLO announced its commitment to the destruction of Israel, the Israelis did surprisingly little to limit its political influence in the territories. The publication of pro-PLO editorials was permitted in the local press, and anti-Israel activities by PLO supporters were tolerated so long as they did not involve overt incitements to violence. Israel also allowed the free flow of PLO-controlled funds, a policy justified by Minister of Defense Ezer Weizmann in 1978 when he remarked: "It does not matter that they get money from the PLO, as long as they don't build arms factories with it." Nor, with very few exceptions, did Israel encourage the formation of Palestinian political institutions that might serve as rivals to the PLO. As a result, the PLO gradually established itself as the dominant force in the territories, marginalizing the traditional leadership.

Doesn't sound like the Palestinians were really oppressed by an apartheid Israel back then, does it? And, the only reason things are so drastically different today is the advent of Palestinian terrorism and violence, suicide bombers, car bombers, rockets fired into Israel on a regular basis, that has forced Israel to implement very tough security measures. Frankly, were I a Palestinian, knowing what I know about the vastly improved lives of Palestinians under Israeli administration back then, I'd want to kick out Hamas and Fatah and the PLO and all the other wonderful factions controlling my life in Gaza and the West Bank and I'd want to live under Israeli "occupation" again. I'm not suggesting for a moment that Israel is perfect. No country is. However, on balance, Israel is an amazingly decent country, esp. under current circumstances. Do keep an open mind. I'm new here and have been horrified at the intense level of hatred and contempt for Israel that has poisoned the minds of very ugly people, based solely on ignorance of history and the facts, and their own demons. But, I know history is on my side, and, in the end, that's all that really matters.
 
You might be too young to remember, or maybe you do remember, when Israel captured the West Bank and Gaza "territories" in '67. Given the current situation of poverty in the West Bank and squalor and hopelessness in Gaza, it probably would surprise you to know that in the 1970's, specifically during the so-called Israeli "occupation", Gaza and the WB, combined, represented the 4th fastest growing economy in the world.

I hear that during Slavery, blacks had it pretty good too.

And the British colonists brought The Word of God to all the pagan savages in Africa.
 
You might be too young to remember, or maybe you do remember, when Israel captured the West Bank and Gaza "territories" in '67. Given the current situation of poverty in the West Bank and squalor and hopelessness in Gaza, it probably would surprise you to know that in the 1970's, specifically during the so-called Israeli "occupation", Gaza and the WB, combined, represented the 4th fastest growing economy in the world. Under Israel's "oppressive" occupation that the Arabs decry, (It's what they live for), Gaza's and the WB's economies were ahead of Singapore, Hong Kong, and Korea, and well ahead of Israel. The number of Palestinians working in Israel rose from 0 in 1967 to 66,000 in 1975 and 109,000 by 1986, which was 35% of the employed population of the WB and 45% in Gaza. Nearly 2,000 industrial plants, employing almost half of the work force, were established in the territories under Israeli "occupation".

While Israel "occupied" the territories, mortality rates in the WB and Gaza decreased by more than two-thirds between 1970 & 1990, while life expectancy rose from 48 yrs in 1967 to 72 yrs in 2000 (compared with an average of 68 yrs for all the countries of the Middle East and North Africa). Advanced Israeli medical care reduced the infant-mortality rate of 60 per 1,000 live births in 1968 to 15 per 1,000 in 2000 (in Iraq the rate is 64, in Egypt 40, in Jordan 23, in Syria 22). And under a comprehensive program of inoculation, childhood diseases like polio, whooping cough, tetanus, and measles were eradicated.

In contrast, before Israel's "occupation" of Gaza and the WB, life expectancy was low; malnutrition, infectious diseases, and child mortality were high, and the level of education was very poor. Prior to the 1967 War, fewer than 60% of all male adults had been employed, with unemployment among refugees up to 83%. Within a brief period after the war, Israeli occupation had led to dramatic improvements in general well-being, placing the population of the territories ahead of most of their Arab neighbors.

During the "occupation", Palestinians saw tremendous improvements in their standard of living. By 1986, 92.8% of the population in the WB and Gaza had electricity 24 hrs a day, as compared to 20.5 % in 1967; 85% had running water in buildings and homes, as compared to 16% in 1967; 83.5% had electric or gas ranges for cooking, as compared to 4% in 1967; same for refrigerators, televisions, and cars.

These dramatic advances in the lives of Palestinians took place under Israeli "domination". However, importantly, the improvement in their socioeconomic place in the world happened while Israel had a "hands-off" policy in the political and administrative areas of their lives. Even as the PLO announced its commitment to the destruction of Israel, the Israelis did surprisingly little to limit its political influence in the territories. The publication of pro-PLO editorials was permitted in the local press, and anti-Israel activities by PLO supporters were tolerated so long as they did not involve overt incitements to violence. Israel also allowed the free flow of PLO-controlled funds, a policy justified by Minister of Defense Ezer Weizmann in 1978 when he remarked: "It does not matter that they get money from the PLO, as long as they don't build arms factories with it." Nor, with very few exceptions, did Israel encourage the formation of Palestinian political institutions that might serve as rivals to the PLO. As a result, the PLO gradually established itself as the dominant force in the territories, marginalizing the traditional leadership.

Doesn't sound like the Palestinians were really oppressed by an apartheid Israel back then, does it? And, the only reason things are so drastically different today is the advent of Palestinian terrorism and violence, suicide bombers, car bombers, rockets fired into Israel on a regular basis, that has forced Israel to implement very tough security measures. Frankly, were I a Palestinian, knowing what I know about the vastly improved lives of Palestinians under Israeli administration back then, I'd want to kick out Hamas and Fatah and the PLO and all the other wonderful factions controlling my life in Gaza and the West Bank and I'd want to live under Israeli "occupation" again. I'm not suggesting for a moment that Israel is perfect. No country is. However, on balance, Israel is an amazingly decent country, esp. under current circumstances. Do keep an open mind. I'm new here and have been horrified at the intense level of hatred and contempt for Israel that has poisoned the minds of very ugly people, based solely on ignorance of history and the facts, and their own demons. But, I know history is on my side, and, in the end, that's all that really matters.
yet life under British rule was unacceptable to the zionist movement....pity they didn't have your attitude. Israel would still be a protectorate of britain.

Under what conditions would you personally accept 2nd class citizenship of "your" nation?
 
yet life under British rule was unacceptable to the zionist movement....pity they didn't have your attitude. Israel would still be a protectorate of britain.

Under what conditions would you personally accept 2nd class citizenship of "your" nation?

The Palestinians aren't treated like 2nd class citizens. Most Palestinians are happy and gay.

Only anti-Semites complain. The West Bank is flowing with milk and Hummus.
 
yet life under British rule was unacceptable to the zionist movement....pity they didn't have your attitude. Israel would still be a protectorate of britain.

Under what conditions would you personally accept 2nd class citizenship of "your" nation?

My nation is America, where historically many citizens have been treated
as "2nd class citizens" or worse, and continue to, or feel so. Israeli Arabs face similar emotions and situations as do minorities in probably any other nation. Singling Israel out in this regard is unfair. On balance, Israel is in the vanguard of human rights and freedoms, esp. in the Arab world. Anyone suggesting there is a policy of state-sanctioned discrimination in Israel has probably not actually been in Israel, as is clearly the case with many Israel detractors, and is ignorant of the facts.
 
Under what conditions would you personally accept 2nd class citizenship of "your" nation?

Happens every day in the United States, so what right do Americans have to complain about Israel?
 
On balance, Israel is in the vanguard of human rights and freedoms, esp. in the Arab world.

Israel is not part of the Arab world. They are a liberal Western style democracy. Claiming to be "better" then the authoritarian dictatorships, religious monarchies, and religious extremists republics, ain't saying much.

Israel claims to be the only democracy in the Middle East. Having state-sanctioned racism in schools, housing, and jobs, is not how a Western democracy behaves.

So either they should be treated like an Arab dictatorship/Islamic theocracy (and get no moral aid or support)...or they can act like a Western democracy. They must decide.

Marc- is it true that racial discrimination in housing, employment, and education, is LEGAL in Israel?

Come on buddy, you can admit it.
 
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My nation is America, where historically many citizens have been treated
as "2nd class citizens" or worse, and continue to, or feel so. Israeli Arabs face similar emotions and situations as do minorities in probably any other nation. Singling Israel out in this regard is unfair. On balance, Israel is in the vanguard of human rights and freedoms, esp. in the Arab world. Anyone suggesting there is a policy of state-sanctioned discrimination in Israel has probably not actually been in Israel, as is clearly the case with many Israel detractors, and is ignorant of the facts.

LOL
sarcasm?
 
Fact: It is LEGAL in Israel to not hire someone for a job, not let them into a school, not sell them a home, not rent them an apartment, because they are an Arab.

That's right folks. Racial discrimination in housing, employment, and education is 100% LEGAL in the Jewish State.

Vanguard of human rights and freedom? I don't think so.

...well maybe compared to the Islamic monarchy of Saudi Arabia..or the fanatical Islamic Republic of Iran. I guess Israel is also a bit better then the Taliban. A tad nicer then Sudan.

oh, Ive also never been to Israel. But Ive also never been to Darfur, Tibet, North Korea, Iran, Kosovo, Cuba, Venezuela, or Saudi Arabia.
 
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Happens every day in the United States, so what right do Americans have to complain about Israel?

Virulent anti-Semitism? Ignorance of the facts? Getting their second-hand information about Israel solely from sources with an anti-Israel bent? Psychological imbalances? Too much free time on their hands?
 
No. I am claiming that by the fact that ONLY Jews can live in the settlements, that it is most likely that ONLY Jews drive on these roads.

I think most of the people who drive on roads in Turkey are Turkish.

Israel is an Apartheid state.
So Turkey is an Apartheid state?
 
Virulent anti-Semitism?

Many Americans are pissed off that AIG used our tax dollars to fund their million dollars bonuses. I think we have the right to be mad.

American's also send $3 billion in tax dollars to Israel every year. I think that gives us the right to get pissed when they use our money for racist settlements.

But...oh....its anti-Semitism. Right.

Hundreds of thousands of people across the world protest against Chinese human rights abuses in Tibet. But I guess they are just really anti-Chinese.

Many Jewish organizations have campaigns to expose and educate people about the genocide in Darfur..but that's just because Jews hate Muslim Arabs.

Thousands of people constantly protest against homophobia..but that's because they just hate straight people.

Right Marc?
 
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