Israel has big plans with Gaza!

[Pardalis]

I agree with what you write except that it is not anti-semitism but anti-Judaism.

That's almost too stupid to respond.

And I cannot imagine what you are thinking about when you say "conspiracy."
...
It is what the leaders want rather than what they say that explains what they do.

And for you to give them (Israel) evil intentions with no evidence makes you a conspiracy theorist.

 

[Thunder]

Israel does have big plans for Gaza. A Gaza ruled by Fatah...free of Hamas. Its a decent goal.

 

[charles brough]

Israel does have big plans for Gaza. A Gaza ruled by Fatah...free of Hamas. Its a decent goal.

Hi! So you love the great, revitalized Germany! Interesting icon, is that a picture of an SS uniform? We have our own SS or Schutzstaffel or "Deparment of Homeland Security." Funny how government bureaus set up to fight terrorism gradually go to such extreme limits to "protect us!"

I think anyone who has the guts to keep throwing rockets at Israel while being slaughtered deserves a little respect. They don't go in for suicide bombs either. They are in a better class of Islam. They just want to go back to the homes they had in Israel before being kicked out. Problem is, they have multiplied so much during their exile that Israel could never find room for them anymore.

 

[Klimax]

Hi! So you love the great, revitalized Germany! Interesting icon, is that a picture of an SS uniform? We have our own SS or Schutzstaffel or "Deparment of Homeland Security." Funny how government bureaus set up to fight terrorism gradually go to such extreme limits to "protect us!"

Missrepresentation of argument by parky.You have most probably based it upon his current avatar and sigline.Nowhere he did said this.(Possible strawman!)And Hamas does quite nicely fit your "description"...

I think anyone who has the guts to keep throwing rockets at Israel while being slaughtered deserves a little respect. They don't go in for suicide bombs either. They are in a better class of Islam. They just want to go back to the homes they had in Israel before being kicked out. Problem is, they have multiplied so much during their exile that Israel could never find room for them anymore.

Hey,Hamas started attacks against Israel,so he does deserve to be punished.
And supporters who voted them in power as WELL.(no Hamas (in Goverment or in existence)- no attacks against Israel )And Hamas is gutless as he is hiding among civilians including those who did not ever supported it.Hamas wants war,wants destruciton of Israel,wants massacre of Jews.Return?Without second intifada they could have peace and possible return and being free of army service and some other laws yet retaining rest of rights and duties(including voting) they could leave happily as rest of Israeli Arabs.

 

[charles brough]

Hay Klimax, I was kidding! That's why I have the smiley faces on it! I am sure Klimax does not need to have you "defend" him!

And where did you get the idea that Hamas wants to massacre the Jews?! They want to be able to move back in the homes in Israel that they were forced to leave. It would seem that the Israelis are the only ones doing the massacring! You say the Palestinians who are defending their refugee camp homes are hiding behind civilians. I guess you think they should leave the homes they are defending and go out into the open fields to be mowed down. Urban warfare is very old. Don't you think it is natural for men to defend their homes. . . ?

Surely you recognize that our media has a single slant (propaganda position) that it consistently follows because it can make money only from advertising from corporations that make money for the rich. I own stocks myself, but I still like to know what is going on rather than just absorb "the usual line."

 

[shadron]

That may well be. The OT people did not trace the full course of the Eurphrates rivers. The old ultra conserviates in Isreal my think in terms of the borders of their ancient kindoms, but do we know where they were? I am not even sure it is academically agreed they had independent kingdoms.

It would seem that the academics have trouble with identifying any northern kingdom of Israel, and damned little of the southern kingdom beyond a warlord's common reach before 800BCE, even if David (ca 1000BCE) got his name on a stele after the Egyptians pulled out. The Bible's definition of Israel is mainly wishful thinking.

 

[charles brough]

SHADRON, it would seem that there might be a lot of wishful thinking in the OT. I agree that they then had little idea of the full course of the two rivers, but modern Israel Zionists do and over the decades to come, it seems to me they will want to take more of it. Their problem is those pesky Palestinians! They cannot easily slaughter them without losing US banking. A few hundred here or there in the current conflict won't do any more than put a little dent in their numbers. What do you think the final solution will be . . . ?

 

[Tony Inchpractice]

And where did you get the idea that Hamas wants to massacre the Jews?! They want to be able to move back in the homes in Israel that they were forced to leave.

Now, I really don't know enough to get into a debate about the rights or wrongs of this conflict, but the above rather makes me think you don't either.

If you've considered the situation as much as your posts suggest you must have come across the founding charter of Hamas. Article 7 is a good place to start. There's a link below (kind of, I can't post links yet) It hardly reads like a document of reconciliation.

www . acpr . org . il/resources/hamascharter . html

 

[Klimax]

Hay Klimax, I was kidding! That's why I have the smiley faces on it! I am sure Klimax does not need to have you "defend" him!

I have not noticed it,my bad.

And where did you get the idea that Hamas wants to massacre the Jews?! They want to be able to move back in the homes in Israel that they were forced to leave. It would seem that the Israelis are the only ones doing the massacring! You say the Palestinians who are defending their refugee camp homes are hiding behind civilians. I guess you think they should leave the homes they are defending and go out into the open fields to be mowed down. Urban warfare is very old. Don't you think it is natural for men to defend their homes. . . ?
/

Hama's charter.Link and excerpts by Wildcat (one of other threads about conflict)

Surely you recognize that our media has a single slant (propaganda position) that it consistently follows because it can make money only from advertising from corporations that make money for the rich. I own stocks myself, but I still like to know what is going on rather than just absorb "the usual line."

I am using media in Czech Republic(ihned.cz and Czech Television) , Reuters and BBC.Czech ones are fairly neutral.

ETA:Thanks to Tony Inchpractice link is www.acpr.org.il/resources/hamascharter.html

 

[Ragnarok]

Now, I really don't know enough to get into a debate about the rights or wrongs of this conflict, but the above rather makes me think you don't either.

If you've considered the situation as much as your posts suggest you must have come across the founding charter of Hamas. Article 7 is a good place to start. There's a link below (kind of, I can't post links yet) It hardly reads like a document of reconciliation.

www . acpr . org . il/resources/hamascharter . html

Unless I see the signatures of every Palestinian adult saying they agree to everything said in there, I am going to assume that is just another load of crackpot ranting justified with religious texts.

It is no more likely to be representative of Palestinians, than the the Pope's declarations and missives are of affecting all Christians.

 

[Doctor Evil]

Unless I see the signatures of every Palestinian adult saying they agree to everything said in there, I am going to assume that is just another load of crackpot ranting justified with religious texts.

It is no more likely to be representative of Palestinians, than the the Pope's declarations and missives are of affecting all Christians.

Oh god, where do I start.

Firstly, it is the charter of Hamas, and therefore is supposed to represent the view of that party, and not of all Palestinians. Typically, the charter of political parties is related to their actual positions. As far as I know, this is the case here.

Secondly, putting unrealistic conditions on what would constitute sufficient evidence for you is just another way of saying that your preconceived beliefs tramp reality.

 

[Tony Inchpractice]

As Dr. Evil has pointed out, I was responding only to the point of whether or not Hamas has stated a desire to massacre the Jews. I make no claims as to the views of the average Palestinian.

Mind you, the link is an .il address, so maybe it's just Zionist propaganda

 

[Klimax]

As Dr. Evil has pointed out, I was responding only to the point of whether or not Hamas has stated a desire to massacre the Jews. I make no claims as to the views of the average Palestinian.

Mind you, the link is an .il address, so maybe it's just Zionist propaganda

I think that Wildcat posted link to different source with identical copy of it and was not israel's "propaganda".(But I don't know what thread it was)

 

[charles brough]

Because of the rukus here, I read the whole damned charter! Aside from all the praise-Allah stuff and repetition, it no where saysw their aim was to slaughter or remove the Jews from their land! In fact, it stated clearly in Article 31 (yes, it has a seemingly endless # of charters!) that Hamas is humane and that they tolerate Jews and Christians among them. It is a fact that many people here are unaware of that there is a significant number of Christian Palestinians.

Curiously, it aims itself three times at the Rotary Club, the Lions and Freemasons! It regards them as spy organizations. Also, they rant against outside organizations, such as the UN, trying to "bring peace" by expecting them to give concessions.

It would be wise to consider that Muslims all consider Jeruselem and, hence, the country around it, Palestine, as the second most sacred spot in Islam, right after where they have the Kaaba.

My point in all this is that the Hamas feels it is struggling for all of Islam against the enemy occupation of their Holy Land and are inferring they expect to "liberate" it by struggle.

Hamas was elected by Palestinians and, in turn, there is every indication that they expect to some day achieve a victory, probably thru force of arms and will then, because of their massive return to Israel, vote in their own government. There is nothing in either their history or the charter itself that in any way indicats that they will "drive out or slaughter" the Jews.

I notice that there is a religious-like intent among many conservatives to the effect that the world is divided into "good" and "evil." They think that Islam is "evil" so they hate it with such intensity that they cannot imagine them doing anything but "evil."

I am a very cynical person, but I am also realistic and keep informed. I do not fall victim to our own media propaganda.

 

[Klimax]

Because of the rukus here, I read the whole damned charter! Aside from all the praise-Allah stuff and repetition, it no where saysw their aim was to slaughter or remove the Jews from their land! In fact, it stated clearly in Article 31 (yes, it has a seemingly endless # of charters!) that Hamas is humane and that they tolerate Jews and Christians among them. It is a fact that many people here are unaware of that there is a significant number of Christian Palestinians.

Curiously, it aims itself three times at the Rotary Club, the Lions and Freemasons! It regards them as spy organizations. Also, they rant against outside organizations, such as the UN, trying to "bring peace" by expecting them to give concessions.

It would be wise to consider that Muslims all consider Jeruselem and, hence, the country around it, Palestine, as the second most sacred spot in Islam, right after where they have the Kaaba.

My point in all this is that the Hamas feels it is struggling for all of Islam against the enemy occupation of their Holy Land and are inferring they expect to "liberate" it by struggle.

Hamas was elected by Palestinians and, in turn, there is every indication that they expect to some day achieve a victory, probably thru force of arms and will then, because of their massive return to Israel, vote in their own government. There is nothing in either their history or the charter itself that in any way indicats that they will "drive out or slaughter" the Jews.

I notice that there is a religious-like intent among many conservatives to the effect that the world is divided into "good" and "evil." They think that Islam is "evil" so they hate it with such intensity that they cannot imagine them doing anything but "evil."

I am a very cynical person, but I am also realistic and keep informed. I do not fall victim to our own media propaganda.

The Universality of Hamas
Article Seven

The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said:

The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).

The Slogan of the Hamas
Article Eight

Allah is its goal, the Prophet its model, the Qur'an its Constitution, Jihad its path and death for the case of Allah its most sublime belief.

Peaceful Solutions, [Peace] Initiatives and International Conferences
Article Thirteen

There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility. The Palestinian people are too noble to have their future, their right and their destiny submitted to a vain game.

The Jihad for the Liberation of Palestine is an Individual Obligation
Article Fifteen

...We must imprint on the minds of generations of Muslims that the Palestinian problem is a religious one, to be dealt with on this premise. ...

The Palestine Liberation Organization
Article Twenty Seven

Thought is the basis for positions, for modes of conduct and for resolutions. Therefore, in spite of our appreciation for the PLO and its possible transformation in the future, and despite the fact that we do not denigrate its role in the Arab-Israeli conflict, we cannot substitute it for the Islamic nature of Palestine by adopting secular thought. For the Islamic nature of Palestine is part of our religion, and anyone who neglects his religion is bound to lose.

Article Twenty Eight

Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims.

Quotes are not out of context,but were trimmed to no violate copyright and rule 4.

And by the way you are about to fall to their(Hamas) propaganda...

I see you noticed the "human" part of charter... Considering human shields,firing from civilian areas and using UN compounds for its terroristic activites and destroying FATAH's presence in Ghaza.Very "human" indeed...

 

[charles brough]

That is all totally consistent with the Koran and typical jihad thinking. . . nothing more. No where is it in the Koran to slaughter a people. The book and all the charters etal talk in a war-like frame in contrast to the New Testament, but they are no more savage when they take over a country in their history than we.

Yes, it says to kill Jews. Muslims and Jews are living together peacefully in many countries in the Near East---even in Iraq and many in Lebanon. To kill is what war is all about, and they intend war on Israel. How else are they ever going to get Palestinian refugees back into Israel? Israel will, in their dreams, be conquered and then they canf get the refugees back to vote in a Palestinian state. They themselves won by an election and expect to again.

Don't let hate cloud perceptions. . .

 

[shadron]

That is all totally consistent with the Koran and typical jihad thinking. . . nothing more. No where is it in the Koran to slaughter a people. The book and all the charters etal talk in a war-like frame in contrast to the New Testament, but they are no more savage when they take over a country in their history than we.

Yes, it says to kill Jews. Muslims and Jews are living together peacefully in many countries in the Near East---even in Iraq and many in Lebanon. To kill is what war is all about, and they intend war on Israel. How else are they ever going to get Palestinian refugees back into Israel? Israel will, in their dreams, be conquered and then they canf get the refugees back to vote in a Palestinian state. They themselves won by an election and expect to again.

Don't let hate cloud perceptions. . .

So they are just jolly bunch of liberal, loose constructionalists after all?

I do understand your point, charles, really. Most moslems can live peacefully with christians, jews, hindi, anamists, pagans and so on, just as hutu and tutsi lived together in peace for hundreds of years. It seems that their governments and their organized religious institutions (fragmented as they are) have a differen agenda, and just as one aw-**** will overcome a thousand attaboys, a small minority of troublemakers can warp a whole people to acquiesce, if not join in, their fantasies. Unfortunately, they don't see the violent overthrow of Israel as a fantasy, or as necessarily "in their dreams". Those aren't sleepy-time missiles they fire into Israel.

One can see the ways in which Saudis, our allies, enforce their mysogynistic sharia law against their guests; think back a little to the teddy bear named Mohammad. One doesn't have to wonder too much about how they'd treat Jews if they had a free hand, and they are Sunnis. Think on how they would have been treated by the Shi'ite Ayatollah Kohmeni, or Iran's latter day leaders. Or the Taliban.

I might add that nowhere in the new testament is there a mandate for the church to rule over Jerusalem, but that didn't stop the crusades.

 

[charles brough]

I might add that nowhere in the new testament is there a mandate for the church to rule over Jerusalem, but that didn't stop the crusades.

Yes, you are so right! And the Crusaders did slaughter! In fact, they slaughtered fellow Christians when they reached Byzantium! Did they also slaughter the Muslim population when they got to Jerusalem? There has been so many early slaughters I cannot remember my history about that. . .

 

[ddt]

Yes, you are so right! And the Crusaders did slaughter! In fact, they slaughtered fellow Christians when they reached Byzantium! Did they also slaughter the Muslim population when they got to Jerusalem? There has been so many early slaughters I cannot remember my history about that. . .

Yes they did. And they slaughtered the Jewish population of the Holy Land. When the First Crusade finally captured Jerusalem, the slaughter was so widespread that the blood ran in rivers through the streets.

 

[charles brough]

Yes they did. And they slaughtered the Jewish population of the Holy Land. When the First Crusade finally captured Jerusalem, the slaughter was so widespread that the blood ran in rivers through the streets.

Yet Saladin was humane about retaking their Holy Land, in Palestine. . .