Israel: Democracy in action.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by demon
Translation...I`totally ignore the original question and the 900lbs gorilla sitting in the corner of the room and deflect attention away from the one question I don`t have the nerve or integrity to answer..."Eretz Israel".

Pssst! In Hebrew, Eretz means land. Eretz Israel means land of Israel.

Originally posted by demon
I failed to see it too...`tis the question that dare not speak it`s name eh Myci? LOL.

Then I'll make you the same deal I made the Fool. If you're too lazy to go look it up, just tell me why taking quotes 50 years or more out of date might not be the best way to discern modern political thought, and I'll repeat my previous answer for you. In fact, I'll be generous and do this if either you or Fool answers.

 

[The Fool]

What, you failed to see my answer the last time you asked? I’ll tell you what, I’ll repeat my answer if you can tell me why taking quotes 50 years or more out of date might not be the best way to discern modern political thought.

this is a joke from a guy that wants to rant about Australian colonial history of 150 to 200 years ago? Is Israel the only Nation where looking at thier founding principles is naughty?

You are still upset about people quoting the founding fathers of Israel talking about the ultimate goals of Israels borders eh? If they are no longer valid, as you claim, then please point out what they have been replaced with....people have been asking this question over and over but nobody seems capable of drawing a line because that would mean they would have to critisize israel if the line is ignored. Critisizing Israel is not allowed.

look Mycroft...lets just cut to the chase. You will not critisize or speak out against ANYTHING done by Israel or in the name of Israel. They have your unswerving support in perpetuity. A true believer, the fact there are so many of you in america is why I fear the Palestinians are ultimately doomed and Israel can continue on its God given right to ultimately occupy all the lands that this god promised them.

 

[zenith-nadir]

No, I missed that one. I was going to correct him for saying a Palestinian-Arab is someone who was born 150 miles south of Beirut. The real definition has nothing to do with where someone was born.

Cleopatra asked CapelDodger why do Lebanese hate Palestinians so much. CapelDodger answered with this little gem;

I imagine it would have something to do with the Palestinians being in Lebanon, rather than in the Palestine they were ejected from. That's just an assumption on my part, of course.

Therein lies the irony. An muslim Arab who was born less than 150 kilometers south of Beirut is considered a "Palestinian" Arab not an Lebanese Arab, and therefore should not be in Lebanon. If that isn't racism I dunno what is. But then again that is just CapelDodger's "assumption".

It's like a_u_p, I have asked him four times in this thread what was the West Bank called before it was renamed "The West Bank" by Jordan in 1949. a_u_p won't answer that question because either A) he is afraid of the answer or B) he is too lazy. My money is on letter "A". Well let me answer it for him. The West Bank used to be called J-u-d-e-a and Samaria for a couple thousand years a_u_p. Jordan annexed J-u-d-e-a and Samaria and renamed it the "West Bank". That is why some jews wish to settle there a_u_p, because the area used to be called J-u-d-e-a and Samaria. Look it up, and no matter how many ways till sunday you will try to dismiss that fact, (and you will), the West Bank will have always been called J-U-D-E-A and Samaria before it was renamed and annexed by Jordan.

The Fool rambles on and on about the "ultimate goals of Israels borders" when he knows full well the ultimate goal of the PLO, PLFP, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fateh and the Al Aksa Martyrs Brigade is the destruction of Israel AND it's borders. That is why the IDF is in the West Bank and Gaza and that is why Israel has been forced to build a wall, that is why ten peace treaties have failed, that is why several American presidents, several international diplomats and several Israeli Prime Ministers have failed to get the islamofascists to stop killing jews. Because they are islamofascists. But all that is not important to the Fool, it is easier for the Fool to keep repeating the ridiculous conspiracy theory that evil zionist jews are hell-bent to take over the middle east as the cause for 50 years of wars and terrorism than to blame the jew-hating islamofascists who use Palestinian civilians for human sheilds.

Demon is another basket case. He cannot admit Arafat has put the Palestinians in the position they are in. Arafat is their leader and is the one with the responsiblity for the palestinians' well being and the palestinians' future and Arafat is the only person on earth responsible for making or breaking peace with the Israelis, yet Arafat can never really make peace with the Israelis because for 40 years Arafat has been the one calling for the destruction of Israel. Arafat has been the one financing terrorism and stealing what's left for himself. But alas, none of that is important because like the fool it is soooo much easier for Demon to blame evil zionist jews who are "hell-bent to redraw Israel's borders".

Frankly debating the Issue with a_u_p, Demon, the Fool or CapelDodger is irrelevant because they will not accept that until the islamofascists of the PLO, PLFP, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fateh or Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades are removed from the equation there can be no peace. It is so much easier for them to blame the "ultimate goals of Israels borders" or "settlers" or "Sharon" or anything else on earth than to blame the leader of the Palestinians for letting muslim fundamentalist islamofascists run wild throughout the West Bank and Gaza torpedoing any chance for peace for the long-suffering Palestinians.


Meanwhile....The International Court of Justice in the Hague said the wall/fence/whatever is illegal on Friday and should be torn down, no surprise there, Arab nations plan to ask the U.N. General Assembly to condemn Israel and force the destruction of the wall/fence/whatever, no surprise there. How dare those Israelis try to stop those suicide bombers regardless of the fact that Arafat refuses to do it....Yet today, (Sunday July the 11th), one person was killed and over 30 wounded in a terrorist bombing targetted civilians on a bus in Tel Aviv. Yasser Arafat's Fatah Al Aksa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack. (link)

 

[CapelDodger]

from zenith-nadir:

My assumption is that the Lebanese hate Palestinians because they were born 150 kilometers south of Beirut and aren't Lebanese they're Palestinians.

If the Palestinians hadn't been expelled from Palestine by the zionists they wouldn't be in Lebanon to cause friction. That is a very simple point, but apparently not one you can grasp.

 

[zenith-nadir]

If the Palestinians hadn't been expelled from Palestine by the zionists they wouldn't be in Lebanon to cause friction. That is a very simple point, but apparently not one you can grasp.

So even after two generations Palestinians are causing friction in Lebanon "because they are palestinian", what's to grasp, except your pure unfiltered racist and xenophobic views about palestinians. Anyhow whatever you do CapelDodger don't mention the Lebanese civil war, the 40,000 dead, the destruction of Beirut and Arafat's or the PLOs part in it. Blame the cough..."zionists".

 

[demon]

"Frankly debating the Issue with a_u_p, Demon, the Fool or CapelDodger is irrelevant because they will not accept that until the islamofascists of the PLO, PLFP, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fateh or Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades"

You forgot "The Kittens Brigade", I`m sure someone mentioned then over at Banter.

 

[zenith-nadir]

You forgot "The Kittens Brigade", I`m sure someone mentioned then over at Banter.

Demon pretty well sums up the old adage; "If you can't baffle them with brains, baffle them with bulls**t"

 

[CapelDodger]

from Mycroft:

What, you failed to see my answer the last time you asked? I’ll tell you what, I’ll repeat my answer if you can tell me why taking quotes 50 years or more out of date might not be the best way to discern modern political thought.

Modern political thought was not current when the zionist project was started. When was the target changed? What border has Israel proposed recently as the national boundary? The line of the Wall isn't it. Can you discern an answer from "modern" Israeli political thought?

What Australia has to do with zionism escapes me, especially as "modern political thought" wasn't current when Australia was originally colonised. (The British actually tried to protect the aboriginal populaton against the depradations of the colonists - sadly no-one's doing that for the aboriginal population of Palestine, since the colonists are the governing power.)

Israel claims to be a state. States have borders. What are the borders of Israel?

 

[CapelDodger]

from zenith-nadir:

So even after two generations Palestinians are causing friction in Lebanon "because they are palestinian", what's to grasp, except your pure unfiltered racist and xenophobic views about palestinians.

They are causing friction in Lebanon because they are foreigners taking up space and resources in a country which already has problems reconciling its different communities. Not because they are Palestinian.

Anyhow whatever you do CapelDodger don't mention the Lebanese civil war, the 40,000 dead, the destruction of Beirut and Arafat's or the PLOs part in it. Blame the cough..."zionists".

If the Palestinians hadn't been ejected from Palestine there would have been no PLO. It is surely not your belief that Palestinians naturally form organisations like the PLO, what with you being anti-racist and all.

But rest assured, the role of zionists in the Lebanon will be addressed at some point on a separate thread.

 

[zenith-nadir]

They are causing friction in Lebanon because they are foreigners taking up space and resources in a country which already has problems reconciling its different communities. Not because they are Palestinian.

Foreigners? Those damn "foreigners" have been living in Lebanon for over 40 years! Additionally Palestinians in Lebanon do not recieve Lebanese social assistance, they cannot vote, they cannot own land, they are not eligible for citizenship. But as you so eloquently state, "they are foreigners taking up space and resources". Are Brits who originated elsewhere but have lived in Britain for over 40 years still foreigners to you CapelDodger? Should they leave? Are they just taking up British space and resources? Why doesn't the British government send all "foreigners", who have lived in Britain for 40 years, home already!

If the Palestinians hadn't been ejected from Palestine there would have been no PLO.

Is that why the PLO tried to take over Jordan, because palestinians were ejected from Palestine? Is that why the PLO fought against the Lebanese in the Lebanese civil war, because palestinians were ejected from Palestine? Is that why the PLO assasinated Jordanian Prime Minister Wash Tel, because palestinians were ejected from Palestine? Is that why the PLO assasinated American chargé d'affaires J. Curtis Moore, the American ambassador, Cleo Noel, and the Belgian chargé d'affaires, Guy Eid, because palestinians were ejected from Palestine? Is that why the PLO hijacked airplanes and blew up Arab and jewish Israelis for 30 years, because palestinians were ejected from Palestine? The PLO was founded in May 1964 by the Arab League to destroy Israel not for some altruistic goal.

But rest assured, the role of zionists in the Lebanon will be addressed at some point on a separate thread.

Since the Lebanese civil war started in 1975 and Israel was not involved I look forward to your dissertation on zionist time travel.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by The Fool
this is a joke from a guy that wants to rant about Australian colonial history of 150 to 200 years ago? Is Israel the only Nation where looking at thier founding principles is naughty?

Except I don't. History is full of injustices and tragedies, your's are not any worse than mine. I only bring it up when you make absurd camparisons pretending that Australian treatment of its aborigional population is somehow a model that should be followed. It's not.

BTW, the baby-stealing is a lot more recent than 150 to 200 years ago. The 1960's, IIRC.

Originally posted by The Fool
You are still upset about people quoting the founding fathers of Israel talking about the ultimate goals of Israels borders eh? If they are no longer valid, as you claim, then please point out what they have been replaced with....people have been asking this question over and over but nobody seems capable of drawing a line because that would mean they would have to critisize israel if the line is ignored. Critisizing Israel is not allowed.

There have been plenty of lines drawn and discussed. Would I be forced to criticize Israel if the eventual lines agreed upon looked more like those proposed by the Geneva plan and not what was discussed at Camp David in 2000? I don't see how.

Originally posted by The Fool
look Mycroft...lets just cut to the chase. You will not critisize or speak out against ANYTHING done by Israel or in the name of Israel. They have your unswerving support in perpetuity.

Israel is a tiny country with a tiny population. It's population diverse and its politics complex. It's faced with a very difficult situation and has been since the moment of its birth. It tries to strike a balance between doing the right thing and doing the safe thing, and very often errs one way or another. It is subject to an unbelievable degree of scrutiny, often motivated by bigotry, it’s often charged with slanders that are obviously false.

Is it perfect? Not at all, but in the situation it’s in it does better than most.

Originally posted by The Fool
A true believer, the fact there are so many of you in america is why I fear the Palestinians are ultimately doomed and Israel can continue on its God given right to ultimately occupy all the lands that this god promised them.

Your insistence in casting the conflict in religious terms is a demonstration of your ignorance. While there certainly is a religious aspect to the conflict, it is no less true for the Palestinian-Arab side of the equation than it is for the Israelis. Zionism was a secular movement, and the majority of Israelis are motivated by secular concerns.

BTW, when you say so many of you…you mean supporters of Israel?

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by CapelDodger
from zenith-nadir:
If the Palestinians hadn't been expelled from Palestine by the zionists they wouldn't be in Lebanon to cause friction. That is a very simple point, but apparently not one you can grasp.

You mean expelled form Jordon, don't you?

 

[Mycroft]

Deleted dupe post

 

[Mycroft]

Cleopatra asked CapelDodger why do Lebanese hate Palestinians so much. CapelDodger answered with this little gem;

Yes, I know. Your response illustrated the irony that an accident of location somehow should make a significant difference in a persons self-identity, and that same self-identity should have such a profound impact on a person's political rights. I would only point out that the definition of "Palestinian" doesn't have anything to do with where one was born, but with their location in the two years prior to Israeli independence, and by being born to someone who fits this criteria. As such, the definition includes many people who were born in many locations, as well as a number of people who have never been to "Palestine". It doesn't alter the point you were making in the slightest.

A few weeks ago I saw a documentary called The Inner Tour. It followed a group of Palestinian-Arabs who took a bus tour of Israel and recorded their reactions and conversations along the way.

One scene I remember was a Palestinian-Arab man at the border of Israel/Lebanon. He was meeting his mother and siblings who were Lebanese. They were separated by two fences of a distance apart that even shouting at each other was difficult. They threw packets of mail and pictures at each other, and that was how they were able to keep in touch. The camera followed him as he sat on a rock, read his letters and looked at the photos of his family he couldn't meet. One couldn't help feeling for this man, separated from his family by an accident of politics.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by CapelDodger
Modern political thought was not current when the zionist project was started. When was the target changed? What border has Israel proposed recently as the national boundary? The line of the Wall isn't it. Can you discern an answer from "modern" Israeli political thought?

It doesn't do any good to ask when a target was changed if the target was never established to begin with. The goal was a homeland, that has been achieved, and now 60 years later you are discussing a diverse population of more than 5 million people as though they all share some secret monolithic idea the rest of us are not privy too.

Originally posted by CapelDodger
What Australia has to do with zionism escapes me, especially as "modern political thought" wasn't current when Australia was originally colonised.

It wasn't current a decade ago either, that's exactly my point.

 

[Elind]

Most people would ignore that, as I think it was intended to be.

American replied, but you seem to have ignored him.

 

[Elind]

The endless debate, what came first, the chicken or the egg?

Actually, the refusal to recognize the concept of Israel came first and everything else follows quite humanly. Too bad the Palestinians hadn't been more than typical tribal fiefdoms like most Arabs at the time.

They might have had cause and intelligence to call themselves a nation much earlier and we could have put Israel in the middle of the Black Forest in Germany after WWII instead. That would have been symbolically appropriate don't you think?

 

[The Fool]

Except I don't. History is full of injustices and tragedies, your's are not any worse than mine. I only bring it up when you make absurd camparisons pretending that Australian treatment of its aborigional population is somehow a model that should be followed. It's not.

I proposed Australian land rights legislation as a model that would bring justice to Palestinians. I doubt if you would agree with this model being implemented as Israel would not be able to take any more of thier land.

BTW, the baby-stealing is a lot more recent than 150 to 200 years ago. The 1960's, IIRC.

I still fail to see the relevance...Are Australians forbidden to have opinions on Middle East politics due to Australian historic factors?


There have been plenty of lines drawn and discussed. Would I be forced to criticize Israel if the eventual lines agreed upon looked more like those proposed by the Geneva plan and not what was discussed at Camp David in 2000? I don't see how.

Damn, that was close....you nearly gave an answer. Once more for luck...What is, in your view, the justifiable limits of Israeli expansion.



Israel is a tiny country with a tiny population. It's population diverse and its politics complex. It's faced with a very difficult situation and has been since the moment of its birth. It tries to strike a balance between doing the right thing and doing the safe thing, and very often errs one way or another. It is subject to an unbelievable degree of scrutiny, often motivated by bigotry, it’s often charged with slanders that are obviously false.

Is it perfect? Not at all, but in the situation it’s in it does better than most.

Is "its not perfect" with no specific examples the best we can expect? Oh well, its a start...



Your insistence in casting the conflict in religious terms is a demonstration of your ignorance. While there certainly is a religious aspect to the conflict, it is no less true for the Palestinian-Arab side of the equation than it is for the Israelis. Zionism was a secular movement, and the majority of Israelis are motivated by secular concerns.

Yep, they may not believe in god but they sure believe god gave them the land.

BTW, when you say so many of you…you mean supporters of Israel?

I mean people like you...those that give unquestioning support to Israel in perpetuity.I often support a wide range of groups on a wide range of issues. Those, like you, who post exclusively in support of Israel often project that behavior onto those that disagee with you. I only ever agree with Israel therefor anyone who disagres with me must support my enemy. When I see Palestinians engaging in criminal activities I can freely condemn them for it, I can call Criminal nutjobs like Arafat appropriate names.....I could not survive on here for ten minutes with a self imposed gag order like you have.

 

[demon]

"Demon pretty well sums up the old adage; "If you can't baffle them with brains, baffle them with bulls**t"

That`s a reference to the "Greater Israel" question is it?

Still waiting...crickets etc

 

[shuize]

Do you want me to say it again, all countries are as responsible to offer asylum to these refugees. Even better, let Israel give them one of their own.

ZN's claim was that Arabs are to blame for these unfortunate people being stateless.

Well, AUP, I'm glad to hear that means you and the other Australians will be giving back your homes and property to the Aboriginees in the name of land reform post-haste. After all, it would be rather hypocritical of you all to call on the Israeli settlers to do that very thing which you yourselves will not, right?