Israel: Democracy in action.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Clock ticking, day 1, your move Skeptic.

The clock keeps ticking till you either put up, or retract.

If I understand this correctly, you're plan is to keep a running total of days until such a thing happens?

 

[Esther]

Yet at the same time I must disagree with the idea that Israel has found a proper balance between being democratic and security minded. More precisely, I see too much in terms of both xenophobic and semi-theocratic attitudes. Many Israelis, including leading officials wish the nation to be more of a religious (Jewish) state, instead of being more of a democracy.

You make some very fair points. However, I cannot think of any country that is in the position to claim that has achieved the proper balance between democracy and security.Comparing Israel to Great Britain for example (the country with the oldest democratic tradition) might be flattering and useful for the Israelis but it's not just when to comes to labeling a country with the characterizations one can find in the western media.

And many really don't see the Palestinians as fully human.

How many are those "many"? Many people in the States do not really see blacks as fully human. Nobody is immuned to bigotry.

One reason not mentioned for building the fence for example is that the Israeli government fears the rise of a Palestinian majority.

This fear pre-exists the erection of the fence but rest assured that there is a great deal of arabs who are afraid of the the "israelization" of their people as well.

To this day Israel still has discriminatory anti-Palestinian laws:

http://www.arabhra.org/article26/factsheet1.htm

Allow me to challenge your source. Israel has some discriminatory laws but not those that the site argues for political reasons. Also, all the Palestinians are not citizens of the state if Israel and the israeli arabs suffer some discriminations but this has to do with the fact that they do not recognize the israeli authority as the legitimate one.

A poll on Israeli's show that most Israelis actually want the government to start making Arab Israelis leave:

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/441646.html

Yes, it's amazing what terror can do to a society. Most people do not wish to harm them , they wish that the problem was miraculously disappeared but this is not possible.

But such does not justify by any means a theocratic or segragationist attitudes on the part of the Israeli community. Instead of calling for a unique Palestinian state (something sought by the US, Israel and Palestinians), instead they should try more integrationist policies, adopting the Palestinians within their own democracy.

I of course do not believe this should happen at a gross loss of security, for example I still support the building of a non-intrusive Israeli-Palestinian fence, but I think Israelis should start seeing Arabs as their equals, encouraging both integration and citizenship; not a government that "encourages" Israeli Arabs to leave.

I observe that you try to keep an equal distance from both sides. In many cases, keeping an equal distance shows the desire to have it all and this is not possible. For example you cannot have a fence and condemn segragationist attitudes because the later exist because some people --the terrorists-- want Israelis to leave or to be eliminated to be exact. Keeping an equal distance is important but the most important is to distinguish which actions are aggressive and which actions are responses to the aggressiveness the other side demonstrates.

 

[a_unique_person]

If I understand this correctly, you're plan is to keep a running total of days until such a thing happens?

Oooh, yeah. Sylvia won't have anything on Skeptic.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Here's an example of democracy in the Palestinian Authority.

Arafat Aide Says UN Envoy Unwelcome After Remarks - Reuters - Wed Jul 14, 2004

RAMALLAH, West Bank (Reuters) - The top U.N. envoy to the Middle East will no longer be welcome in the Palestinian territories after he harshly criticized Yasser Arafat, a senior adviser to the Palestinian president said Wednesday.

"Terje Roed-Larsen's statement is not objective. As of today he is an unwelcome person in Palestinian territories," Nabil Abu Rdainah told Reuters, referring to remarks by the envoy at the United Nations Tuesday.

Larsen accused Arafat of giving "only nominal and partial support" to Egyptian efforts to support Palestinian security reforms demanded by the international community in an effort to end almost four years of Middle East violence. Although Arafat remained confined to his West Bank headquarters under virtual house arrest, surrounded by Israeli forces, Larsen said, "this is not an excuse for passivity and inaction."

This is a perfect illustration of why Israel has to build a wall. Terje Roed-Larsen is consistantly critical of anything Israel does. The U.N. has bent over backwards to condemn Israel for everything under the sun including breathing, yet the instant the U.N. envoy to the Middle East critisizes Arafat he is "no longer be welcome in the Palestinian territories".

Is this sinking in? Arafat "diplomatically" told Terje Roed-Larsen to phuck off and don't ever come back to Gaza. Wow that's some diplomacy considering in a week or two the Palestinian Authority is going to climb up the U.N.'s ass to sanction Israel for building a wall against palestinian suicide bombers....

And that is the catch. The Palestinian Authority is a dictatorship run by a greedy senile incompetent old terrorist which does not represent the Palestinian people. The Palestinian Authority answers to no one and has responsibility to no one save Arafat and his PLO cronies. That's why the islamofascist terror groups run wild in Gaza and the West Bank, that is why there is no peace and that is why Israel was forced to build a wall and the Palestinian people suffer.

While others at JREF blame Sharon, the wall, settlers, they purposely omit the real crux of the problem, that there is nobody on the Palestinian side to make peace with, that there is nobody on the Palestinian side to stop the terrorists, that there is nobody on the Palestinian side who represents the Palestinian people. That is why there is a frikkin wall.

 

[Skeptic]

If I understand this correctly, you're plan is to keep a running total of days until such a thing happens?

Not the scariest threat I've ever heard... AUP reminds me of the beggar in the old joke that threathened, if not offered a meal, to be forced to do what his father did in a similar situation--go to bed hungry.

Anyway, why should I retract a rather obvious truth? It's not as if I'm the only person here on whom AUP makes that impression. Just ask AUP if israel has a right to exist, and watch him squirm as he tries to say "no" without looking like a jew-hater. For bonus points, you can ask him about the "zionist control" of American media or the two-year-old victim of Hamas whom he labeled an "extremist" because he was "an ultra-orthodox jew".

Yes, we have quite a human-rights fighter here, caring for "justice"; apparently he doesn't consider jews to be quite human, though.

 

[a_unique_person]

Not the scariest threat I've ever heard... AUP reminds me of the beggar in the old joke that threathened, if not offered a meal, to be forced to do what his father did in a similar situation--go to bed hungry.

Anyway, why should I retract a rather obvious truth? It's not as if I'm the only person here on whom AUP makes that impression. Just ask AUP if israel has a right to exist, and watch him squirm as he tries to say "no" without looking like a jew-hater. For bonus points, you can ask him about the "zionist control" of American media or the two-year-old victim of Hamas whom he labeled an "extremist" because he was "an ultra-orthodox jew".

Yes, we have quite a human-rights fighter here, caring for "justice"; apparently he doesn't consider jews to be quite human, though.

OK, then, please make out your list of accusations, and the basis on which you make them. Please forward them to the moderators, and I will ask them to arrange to investigate me and either validate them or you apologise for making baseless insults and accusations.

 

[Skeptic]

OK, then, please make out your list of accusations, and the basis on which you make them. Please forward them to the moderators, and I will ask them to arrange to investigate me and either validate them or you apologise for making baseless insults and accusations.

Well, let's start with an easy, yes-or-no question. Does israel have a right to exist as a jewish state, AUP?

 

[a_unique_person]

OK, then, please make out your list of accusations, and the basis on which you make them. Please forward them to the moderators, and I will ask them to arrange to investigate me and either validate them or you apologise for making baseless insults and accusations.

Well, let's start with an easy, yes-or-no question. Does israel have a right to exist as a jewish state, AUP?

Hang on, you have already been accusing me of numerous crimes. You will have made those accusations on some basis. Please list those accusations, and the basis on which they were made.

We can move on to my next trial after we get this one out the way.

Unless you suddenly realise that you had better get some evidence to back up the accusation you have already made....

 

[Mycroft]

You make some very fair points. However, I cannot think of any country that is in the position to claim that has achieved the proper balance between democracy and security...

Bravo! That is exactly the post I would have written, very well said.

 

[Mycroft]

Not the scariest threat I've ever heard... AUP reminds me of the beggar in the old joke that threathened, if not offered a meal, to be forced to do what his father did in a similar situation--go to bed hungry.

I was feeling envious. Here you’ve been given an opportunity to get him to waste his time, stalking and badgering you for months with zero effort on your part. Or you could make him squirm with those issues you raise. Either way it seems as though you get the better end of the deal.

 

[Skeptic]

[Hang on, you have already been accusing me of numerous crimes. You will have made those accusations on some basis. Please list those accusations, and the basis on which they were made.

So, does israel have a right to exist as a jewish state or not?

 

[a_unique_person]

[Hang on, you have already been accusing me of numerous crimes. You will have made those accusations on some basis. Please list those accusations, and the basis on which they were made.

So, does israel have a right to exist as a jewish state or not?

I have put the challenge to you, now you are want to weasel out of it with some post-hoc research.

No way, you have made the accustions already, tell me what you have based them on.

Day two of the Skeptic Clock.

 

[The Fool]

I was feeling envious. Here you’ve been given an opportunity to get him to waste his time, stalking and badgering you for months with zero effort on your part. Or you could make him squirm with those issues you raise. Either way it seems as though you get the better end of the deal.

I think A_U_P is simply feeding "Skeptic" what he craves. I simply refused to play "skeptics" lying racists games anymore. A_U_P should simply click the Ignore button on "skeptic" and put an end to the whole business.

 

[Esther]

Bravo! That is exactly the post I would have written, very well said.

Thanks Mycroft.

I am trying to understand the dispute between Skeptic and a unique person without any success for the moment.

A_U_P, do you deny Israel's right to exist? If yes, why, do you belong to the Heredim?

 

[a_unique_person]

Thanks Mycroft.

I am trying to understand the dispute between Skeptic and a unique person without any success for the moment.

A_U_P, do you deny Israel's right to exist? If yes, why, do you belong to the Heredim?

The simple point I am trying to make is that Skeptic has accused me of many things, such as trawling revisionist sites for anti-semite material to feed my hatred of jews, of being two faced and not saying I really hate jews to their face, etc.

All I want him to do is prove it. Perhaps he is psychic, in which case I will let the JREF admin test me to determine if he is right or wrong. If he is right, I think he is entitled to the $1,000,000, if he is wrong, he should apologise, and shut up with his libels.

Starting off a whole new debate, to get ammo to attack me with now, is not in the rules. He already has all the evidence he needs, since he has accused me of being an extreme anti-semite. Either he is psychic, or he has evidence.

 

[The Fool]

Thanks Mycroft.

I am trying to understand the dispute between Skeptic and a unique person without any success for the moment.

A_U_P, do you deny Israel's right to exist? If yes, why, do you belong to the Heredim?

Esther....."Skeptic" has a habit of assigning fantasy opinion and attributing fantasy quotes to anyone he disagrees with. Generally, if Skeptic says someone has a certain opinion or has expressed a certain viewpoint, by default you should assume its a fabrication. He has form for this going back a long time.


He seems to believe there is only one motivation that people can possibly have if they disagree with any action of the Israeli government....Anti-semitism. He is obsessed by it.

 

[Chaos]

Thanks Mycroft.

I am trying to understand the dispute between Skeptic and a unique person without any success for the moment.

A_U_P, do you deny Israel's right to exist? If yes, why, do you belong to the Heredim?

Esther,

I´m afraid that "Skeptic", while he may be a really smart guy (and his posts not related to Israel, Jews, Arabs, Muslims or terrorism suggest that he is), he turns into a mad frothing-at-the-mouth fanatic as soon as these topics are mentioned.

For him, the world is extremely simple: there are the US and Israel, who could never do anything wrong in the whole Israeli/Palestinian matter, and there are the Palestinians/Muslims/Arabs/Terrorists (he seems to have some problem telling these terms apart) who are the very definition of EVIL.
Since he "knows" that, and since this is so clear for him, everybody else must see that, too, and therefore everybody who disagrees is LYING. And "of course" they all do that because they are anti-semites and want to see all jews killed in the most horrible way possible. Everything they say or do is either evidence for that motivation or a trick to disguise that motivation - and therefore, also evidence for it.
People like AUP, The Fool, CapelDodger, and several others - me included - have, at various times, been the targets of "Skeptic"´s paranoid delusions. He has - with the enthusiastic help of Rikzilla, Wildcat, Ziggurat et al - also succeeded in driving away the only Muslim poster I have ever seen here. I have disagreed with "Skeptic" and his fellow fanatics several times, and since I am a German, they quickly "found out" that I must be a Nazi. For the record, I am not - not that anything might dissuade them, of course.

Esther, I respect both your opinion and the civility with which you are expressing it, but "Skeptic" is not the right person to ally with for a civil debate. Nor is AUP the right person to confront in civil debate, I have to admit. Most reasonable people here have given up on argueing with them (on this matter) long ago.
For a civil debate on the Israeli/Palestinian matter, I suggest you look for an exchange between Cleopatra and CapelDodger.

 

[a_unique_person]

Esther, I respect both your opinion and the civility with which you are expressing it, but "Skeptic" is not the right person to ally with for a civil debate. Nor is AUP the right person to confront in civil debate, I have to admit. Most reasonable people here have given up on argueing with them (on this matter) long ago.
For a civil debate on the Israeli/Palestinian matter, I suggest you look for an exchange between Cleopatra and CapelDodger.

I have no problem in civil debate, but I give back what I get.

 

[a_unique_person]

I have no problem in civil debate, but I give back what I get. Eg, I can't recall ever attacking Cleopatra or CapelDodger, for example, nor many other people here, but I don't sit back put up with abuse.

 

[DialecticMaterialist]

How many are those "many"? Many people in the States do not really see blacks as fully human. Nobody is immuned to bigotry.

Enough for me to meet via random searching and personal communication, and even for other Israelis I met to say its fairly common. The polls indicating how many Israelis confirm this imo.

I am aware of how many americans see blacks as less then human, which is why I'm more willing to believe in Israeli bigotry, not less, seeing as they are in a more extreme position then us.

This fear pre-exists the erection of the fence but rest assured that there is a great deal of arabs who are afraid of the the "israelization" of their people as well.

No argument here, I even said Palestinains were likely against integration themselves and many of them would be even more prejudice then Israelis.

Allow me to challenge your source. Israel has some discriminatory laws but not those that the site argues for political reasons.

My site argues for many reasons, not just special priveldges for political reasons. For example parties that call for equality among jews and non-jews (a mixed Israel) are banned from elections. Jews get automatic citizenship (something no one else gets). Jewish organizations are given special tax credits that other groups do not get. Palestinians are not as regularly invited into military service (which grants many benefits), and more benefits are given to Jewish then Palestinian towns of equal economic plight (economic plight is supposed to be the only determining factor.)

Yes, it's amazing what terror can do to a society. Most people do not wish to harm them , they wish that the problem was miraculously disappeared but this is not possible.

Well you may say its merely in response to terror, I'd say that sounds post hoc. I really doubt the Israeli's were completely immune to prejudice pre-terrorism, and I really doubt it would stop if terrorism ended tomorrow. Terrorism contributes surely, but can it be labled the sole culprit? Doubtful.

And even if it was (which is doubtful) would that justify racism of this scale? Do the latest arab or right-wing terrorist attacks justify outlawing or deporting either kind of person? I'm not accusing you of such a defense exactly, but your claim is certainly ambiguous.

I observe that you try to keep an equal distance from both sides. In many cases, keeping an equal distance shows the desire to have it all and this is not possible.

No, I try to get what's beneficial for both sides. I side with Israel, all things being equal btw, as it is a democracy.

For example you cannot have a fence and condemn segragationist attitudes because the later exist because some people --the terrorists-- want Israelis to leave or to be eliminated to be exact.

Sure you can, by recognizing that the fence is made to thwart terrorists, not arabs. And by thus allowing arabs to immigrate in. You may not have all of what's best from both worlds, that is true, but you can have some from each-through compromise.

Keeping an equal distance is important but the most important is to distinguish which actions are aggressive and which actions are responses to the aggressiveness the other side demonstrates.

Yes but the Palestinians would say they are responding to the Jews taking their land almost a hundred years ago. And to the amount of deaths caused by Israeli occupation-in which case the trend continues forever.

And with responses even you must realize it is better directed against the actual perpetrators specifically, and worse if directed in a blanket manner against a whole type of people (many of which are not terrorists).


Again, I'm not distancing myself from both sides as I am trying to be objective. That means that even though I support Israel, I'm willing to point out its faults (nobodies perfect.) And I believe that pointing out these faults is of the utmost importance in trying to support the nation, because only by pointing out such faults can we actually help a nation, any nation (including Israel) improve.