Islam & Judaism

[Upchurch]

Re: Re: Re: Islam & Judaism

But aren't Unitarians just reffering to other sects of Christianity when they say "everybody's God is the same?"

I attended a Unitarian service just yesterday and it was not, in my opinion, leaned towards Christianity. The church itself bears no religious symbols of any kind, that I could identify, unless you count the mural of trees and hills as a pegan symbol. At no time during the service was any reference made to Jesus, not even in the music. In fact, the only thing about the church that reminded me of the Christian church I grew up in, were a few elements of the architecture of the building itself, but one could argue that this is more inherent of American mid-west churches than Christian churches

Yesterday's service most centered around Martin Luthor King Jr.'s life and work (today being MLK Jr. Day), so by necessity, I suppose that one could argue that the service did have a Christian angle. However, I went to a service on April Fool's day a couple of years ago and the minister was telling jokes from various religions, including Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hindu, and I think he even pulled a Native American joke.

In short (too late), you can't call Unitariansim a "Christian sect".

Upchurch

 

[CWL]

Re: Re: Re: Islam & Judaism

There has to be something pretty wrong with Juddiasm, or they wouldn't have so many people hating them for about as long as they've been around. The reason they have so many problems living in Israel with the Muslims can't be entirely the Muslims' fault.

This has more to do with the fact that Jews have historically lived as a secluded minority (either by choice or because they have been forced to do so) within otherwise relatively homogenous societies. It is very easy to point at someone who is different when one is in need of a scapegoat...

 

[Guest]

"who has the moral/historical/etc high ground",...in most all incidences I give it to the Islamics. This is not to say I agree with their ridiculous and hideous religion, but as a whole, they been screwed by the Jews and Christians near everytime.

From the time of Abraham, when Ishmael got defrauded from his inheritence, to the late 40's when British allowed tens of thousand armed aliens to immigrate into Palestine, to the thousands of women and children murdered under General Ariel Sharon in the 80's, to the thousands of Palestinians torn from their homes and placed in refugee camps, the atrocities of the Jews are legendary outside the English speaking world.

As for christians, it was they, under the christian tyrant Justian, whose forced baptisms of the arabs in the 6th Century that lead directly to the establishment of the Islamic religion.

If we ever want Peace in the World, all three of these malignancies upon humankind must be obliterated.

In America school kids are taught about the American Revolution. Want to know what Arab kids learn in their schools? Try: http://www.deoxy.org/wc

 

[Graham]

Following with interest

I was following this with interest, waiting for some more big guns to weigh in.

Where are you guys? (don't answer that, I know where you are!)

Graham

 

[Giz]

"who has the moral/historical/etc high ground",...in most all incidences I give it to the Islamics. This is not to say I agree with their ridiculous and hideous religion, but as a whole, they been screwed by the Jews and Christians near everytime.

From the time of Abraham, when Ishmael got defrauded from his inheritence, to the late 40's when British allowed tens of thousand armed aliens to immigrate into Palestine, to the thousands of women and children murdered under General Ariel Sharon in the 80's, to the thousands of Palestinians torn from their homes and placed in refugee camps, the atrocities of the Jews are legendary outside the English speaking world.

As for christians, it was they, under the christian tyrant Justian, whose forced baptisms of the arabs in the 6th Century that lead directly to the establishment of the Islamic religion.

If we ever want Peace in the World, all three of these malignancies upon humankind must be obliterated.

In America school kids are taught about the American Revolution. Want to know what Arab kids learn in their schools? Try: http://www.deoxy.org/wc

Bull.

A more accurate assessment would be that throughout history the state/people with greater power have invaded/oppressed those with less.

I'm not aware of ANY nation/religion being free from those traits. A cynic might put it down to human nature (It's just a pity that such a prominant part of our common humanity should be our fractious tribalism).

nb I haven't clicked on your link, so what is it they teach? The conquest of Spain? The Ottoman Empire in the Balkans and Armenia? Anyway, the moral is - don't claim victimhood, it won't improve your situation, but it might make you think like a victim.

 

[Q-Source]

Another bump

 

[renata]

I know a lot of resentment of the Jews in Europe was because the Church forbade loaning money with interest and the Jews had no such laws. Thus the Jews owned many of the banks and people resented them for this. I'm not sure if there is a parallel with the Middle East, but there must be something like that there.

Denise, in a lot of countries, Jews were forbidden to own land. That is one of the reasons Jews went into various trades that did not involve land ownership, such as banking. Also, since Jews were scattered throughout Europe, it was easy to establish common trade connections between varying communities.

Originally posted by c4ts
There has to be something pretty wrong with Juddiasm, or they wouldn't have so many people hating them for about as long as they've been around. The reason they have so many problems living in Israel with the Muslims can't be entirely the Muslims' fault.

I can't imagine you really mean that. You can substitute anything instead of Judaism- atheism, being dark skinned, etc- pretty much any oppressed minority.

 

[Segnosaur]

I know a lot of resentment of the Jews in Europe was because the Church forbade loaning money with interest and the Jews had no such laws.

I think another main reason why there was such a long-standing resentment in Europe is the whole "You killed Jesus" thing. (Wasn't it just a few years ago that the pope officially relieved the Jewish people for any blame they supposedly had over this?)

 

[ShottleBop]

There has to be something pretty wrong with Juddiasm, or they wouldn't have so many people hating them for about as long as they've been around. The reason they have so many problems living in Israel with the Muslims can't be entirely the Muslims' fault.

Read Constantine's Sword The Church and the Jews: A History, by James Carroll. It explains the roots of Christian anti-Semitism. It wasn't until the late 18th century, for example, in France, that Jews were admitted to citizenship in any major Christian European nation.

Jews and Muslims used to get along; Muslim Spain was a haven for Jews during the Middle Ages. (Actually, Jews, Christians and Muslims in Spain generally all got along pretty well under Muslim rule.) Judaism and Islam are very similar in many respects--certainly, they have more in common with each other than either of them has with Christianity.

The situation in Palestine is the result of Jews, in great numbers, moving (or, as many Jews would say, "returning") to a Palestine in which Jews were long outnumbered by Arabs. Many Jews consider Palestine to be "ours", promised to us in perpetuity by God. Others recognize the injustice of taking such a position. Tikkun's site is a good source of information regarding the pacifist Jewish approach to attaining peace in the Middle East.

 

[Loki]

There's no way I'm going to even attempt to unravel the history of Palestine and establish a clear mandate for one side or the other. About the only thing I surprised by is that the Israeli's have shown a disappointing ability to endulge in "an eye for an eye" in the past 25 years or so. Prior to the Yom Kippur War of 73, the Israeli's were fighting for survival in hostile lands. Since their overwhelming vitory, the external threats have largely diminished, and the Israelis are now cast in the role of "master" rather than "victim" in the region. How have they used this power? Same as everyone else!

The current Israeli philosophy seems to be something like "we've taken ◊◊◊◊◊ for centuries - now it's our turn to kick some butt". Given the history of the 20th century, I'd have hoped the Jews might have been able to learn something about the dangers of a strong government marginalising a minority within the general population, but apparently not.

 

[Ben Shniper]

Muslims hate Jews, Jews hate Muslims. That's a very simple picture. The reality is even more simple, however.

Muslims also massacred Christians in Lebanon, in Sudan, in Ethiopia, in Egypt and are currently doing so in Ivory Coast (under the un-watchful eye of France), Nigeria, Pakistan, Algeria, and Chechnya/Russia. The world is full of war - but most wars are between a primarily Muslim group and a primarily non-Muslim or non-religious Muslim group. That's a cold hard fact.

So if the Palestinians "deserve" a state, we should ask why Muslims are attacking in Chechnya, Erritria, Philipines, Malaysia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and all over. After all, Muslims just fight Jews, noone else, certainly there would be no wars of genocide against, say, Serbs and Croats and Bosnians in Europe, right? Oh, wait, there was? Does every Muslim group deserve more land, and new states? Does every group fighting Muslims always have to be automatically wrong to do so?

Well, just goes to show, there is something sinister happening, and it's name is militant Islam. (The political movement to make Islam the official religious doctrine of states).

http://www.danielpipes.org/

-Ben

 

[Bjorn]

... we should ask why Muslims are attacking in ..... Malaysia ....
-Ben

Are they? The only case you can make for this, is if you're talking about a few fanatics, much like the Christian fundamentalists in the US.

Malaysia is a 'muslim country', but still a democracy that is behaving very well and actively fighting extremism.

 

[FireGarden]

Ben, have you noticed that most wars are conducted in countries that can least afford them? Still correlation is not causation, there could be many factors involved.

Muslims hate Jews, Jews hate Muslims.

My (Muslim) uncle married a Jew.
A small survey, I know, but perhaps (just maybe) you're wrong on both counts. (I know you don't want to be) I also know that you don't want to believe what ShottleBop said above about Jews and Muslims getting along in Moorish Spain. Oh! I forgot, the Muslims built their empire through military conquest, unlike the Romans, the Vikings, the British, .......... consider "How the West was won"

The world is full of war - but most wars are between a primarily Muslim group and a primarily non-Muslim or non-religious Muslim group. That's a cold hard fact.

So......
In these "religious" wars, you have non-Muslims fighting alongside Muslims on team A against Muslims who are fighting alongside non-Muslims on team B!!!

After all, Muslims just fight Jews, noone else, certainly there would be no wars of genocide against, say, Serbs and Croats and Bosnians in Europe, right? Oh, wait, there was?

Excuse me, but I was under the impression that it was the Serbs under Milosovic that were killing Bosnian Muslims. Isn't that what he's on trial for? Not for conducting a war, but for carrying out a policy of "ethnic cleansing". Blair and Bush always use the West's intervention in this war as an example whenever they want to make it clear that they are not conducting a war against Islam.


But to find the most warlike, shouldn't we ask which nation has been involved in the most wars over the last hundred years? I can think of one nation that has been involved in WW I and II, Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Sudan, Libya and several Latin American states. Tony Benn has a longer list of countries that America has bombed in living memory, but I don't recall it.