Islam & Judaism

[Upchurch]

(in an attempt at diversity in topics)

I know this is, in reality, mostly a political issue, but it is also two religions at complete odds with one another who are unable to either recognize or rationalize their common roots.

Before 9/11, I was more or less blissfully unaware of the conflict, but since then I've been stuggling to understand the basis for the conflict in both a recent and ancient historical context. Even though I know that both sides have done horrible things and there is no clear cut lines, I feel inclined to fall on the side of the Jews.

I was just curious if anyone else had convincing arguments why either side has the moral/historical/etc high ground over the other...

Upchurch

 

[Q-Source]

I feel inclined to fall on the side of the Jews.

What is the basis for your inclination on the side of the Jews?

In this matter IMO, we should take in consideration not religious arguments (i.e. who is the real God) but whom really belongs the territory in dispute.

Q-S

 

[Upchurch]

Re: Re: Islam & Judaism

What is the basis for your inclination on the side of the Jews?

Probably because it was Muslims, granted extrmist Muslims, who attacked the Trade Center Towers and calling for the death of all Americans. I realize that it's an emotional call on my part, but I'm touchy about people wanting me dead.

In this matter IMO, we should take in consideration not religious arguments (i.e. who is the real God) but whom really belongs the territory in dispute.

I agree when it comes to the territory that it has nothing to do with whose religion is better than whose, but just within the conflict between Muslims and Jews, does one have the moral high ground at all? Or are all religions on equal footing?

 

[c4ts]

Re: Re: Islam & Judaism

There has to be something pretty wrong with Juddiasm, or they wouldn't have so many people hating them for about as long as they've been around. The reason they have so many problems living in Israel with the Muslims can't be entirely the Muslims' fault.

 

[mumchup]

Re: Re: Re: Islam & Judaism

There has to be something pretty wrong with Juddiasm, or they wouldn't have so many people hating them for about as long as they've been around. The reason they have so many problems living in Israel with the Muslims can't be entirely the Muslims' fault.

It does seem that any religion derived from another in any way seems to really hate it's predecessors. Many Christians have a big problem with Jews too, but Islamics also hate Jews AND Christians. Many Protestant religions hate Catholics. Even Pepsi hates Coca-Cola.

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Islam & Judaism

It does seem that any religion derived from another in any way seems to really hate it's predecessors. Many Christians have a big problem with Jews too, but Islamics also hate Jews AND Christians. Many Protestant religions hate Catholics. Even Pepsi hates Coca-Cola.

That reminds me of an old joke...

A nun was teaching a class in Catholic school and she asked one little girl "What do you want to be when you grow up?"
The girl replied " I want to be a prostitute when I grow up!"
The nun fainted on the floor, when she was revived she asked the girl "What did you say?"
The girl replied," I said I wanted to be a prostitute when I grow up." The nun said, "Thanks Heavens, I thought you said you wanted to be a protestant."

 

[c4ts]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Islam & Judaism

It does seem that any religion derived from another in any way seems to really hate it's predecessors. Many Christians have a big problem with Jews too, but Islamics also hate Jews AND Christians. Many Protestant religions hate Catholics. Even Pepsi hates Coca-Cola.

I don't thing being the original is grounds for your emulators to hate you, with the exception of Coke but that's because the company is supposed to have competitors in a free market economy.

 

[mumchup]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Islam & Judaism

I don't thing being the original is grounds for your emulators to hate you, with the exception of Coke but that's because the company is supposed to have competitors in a free market economy.

Don't the various sects all compete for our attentions? Maybe it is like competing brands. It always seems that the less difference there is between two products, the more effort they put into pointing out how very, very different they are.

 

[c4ts]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Islam & Judaism

Don't the various sects all compete for our attentions? Maybe it is like competing brands. It always seems that the less difference there is between two products, the more effort they put into pointing out how very, very different they are.

Yet Eastern religions seem to combine quite easily, and ancient polytheistic Western religions incorporated other Gods into theirs.

 

[mumchup]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Islam & Judaism

Yet Eastern religions seem to combine quite easily, and ancient polytheistic Western religions incorporated other Gods into theirs.

Exactly. The eastern religions and western polytheism incorporated ideas from other beliefs.
The others are the result of somebody, at some time, deciding to break away from another church. There does seem to be a difference in attitude.

 

[c4ts]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Islam & Judaism

Exactly. The eastern religions and western polytheism incorporated ideas from other beliefs.
The others are the result of somebody, at some time, deciding to break away from another church. There does seem to be a difference in attitude.

But what is preventing two monotheistic religions from arriving at the conclusion "my God is just like your God, so maybe they're the same"? Attitude? Why aren't there any religions that share Christian and Islamic beliefs, or something like that? Not everybody has the same attitude, and that's how these divisions get started.

 

[Guest]

I have noticed in my life that many people who have a faith in God also believe that it doesn't matter what religion you are. They feel that Jesus, Mohommad etc were all teachers of one god. That yaweh, allah, the great white spirit- you name it are all incarnations of the same, of the "one" creator.

It seems in our society at least, having differing religious views is a little more tolorated than in the past. Look at the growth of new age religion. I don't have any stats to back it up, but it seems that more young people are more tolerant of other religions and are joining "alternative" religions such as Wicca.

It seems that this is not occurring as much in places such as the Middle East, although I'm not sure.

Anyhow, maybe the Muslims are just pissed because Abraham and Sarah threw out Ishmael in favor of Isaac. JK.

I know a lot of resentment of the Jews in Europe was because the Church forbade loaning money with interest and the Jews had no such laws. Thus the Jews owned many of the banks and people resented them for this. I'm not sure if there is a parallel with the Middle East, but there must be something like that there.

 

[mumchup]

But what is preventing two monotheistic religions from arriving at the conclusion "my God is just like your God, so maybe they're the same"? Attitude? Why aren't there any religions that share Christian and Islamic beliefs, or something like that? Not everybody has the same attitude, and that's how these divisions get started.

There is the Unitarian Universalist church. From what I've seen of them they have the kind of inclusive "everybody's god is the same" attitude you're talking about.
As for why there aren't more like them; why is there so much hateful nationalism, racism, class warfare, rioting sports fans etc. in the world? But then, maybe that's another subject altogehter.

 

[mumchup]

I have noticed in my life that many people who have a faith in God also believe that it doesn't matter what religion you are. They feel that Jesus, Mohommad etc were all teachers of one god. That yaweh, allah, the great white spirit- you name it are all incarnations of the same, of the "one" creator.

I know people like this too, and I have noticed that these same people seem also to consciously embrace the positive aspects of religion as a whole. By that I mean, don't lie, be nice to other people even if they are different, help others, and that sort of thing. And they spend little or no time trying to make sure others know that theirs is the One True Way to Salvation. It seems to me that that's what religion ought to be; and it's a good thing for the world.

For the record I am not at all religious

 

[c4ts]

Re: Re: Islam & Judaism

There is the Unitarian Universalist church. From what I've seen of them they have the kind of inclusive "everybody's god is the same" attitude you're talking about.
As for why there aren't more like them; why is there so much hateful nationalism, racism, class warfare, rioting sports fans etc. in the world? But then, maybe that's another subject altogehter.

The only problem is that the Unitarians are a fairly recent addition. I was wondering if there was something inherently wrong with monotheism itself, because early monotheism did not have, nor have any reason to need, Unitarian Universalism. But aren't Unitarians just reffering to other sects of Christianity when they say "everybody's God is the same?"

 

[Flaherty]

I tend to favor Israel over the Palestinians because Israel is the only real democracy in the region. Turkey is democratic, too, but they're not a part of the Arab-Israeli conflict. The Palestinians ought to get the West Bank as a homeland, but not under the current conditions of repeated terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians. How an Israeli politician extracts the Jewish settlers from the WB is beyond me.

 

[mumchup]

Re: Re: Re: Islam & Judaism

The only problem is that the Unitarians are a fairly recent addition. I was wondering if there was something inherently wrong with monotheism itself, because early monotheism did not have, nor have any reason to need, Unitarian Universalism. But aren't Unitarians just reffering to other sects of Christianity when they say "everybody's God is the same?"

I don't think that the problem lies with monotheism, I think it's a much bigger problem than that.
I don't know much about the Unitarians, but I spent some time helping out social services group and they sometimes met in the basement of a unitarian church. The Sunday school stuff on the wall included non-christian religions in the teaching. Granted, it was not as prevalant as Jesus and crew, but it was there. Could just be that particular church too.

 

[FireGarden]

c4ts,

There has to be something pretty wrong with Juddiasm, or they wouldn't have so many people hating them for about as long as they've been around. The reason they have so many problems living in Israel with the Muslims can't be entirely the Muslims' fault

This reminds me of that Hitler-apologist/historian who actually tried to sue a jounalist that called him a fascist. He lost. And deservedly. (I don't remember his name, it might have been David something)

Why not:
"Atheists have been hated wherever they go, it must be because of who they are."

Because all outsiders and minorities have been hated wherever they go. A sad fact of human nature.



[On topic]
Arthur C Clarke being interviewed by Free Inquiry:

FI: Do you see any value at all in the various religions?

Clarke: Though I sometimes call myself a crypto-Buddhist, Buddhism is not a religion. Of those around at the moment, Islam is the only one that has any appeal to me. But, of course, Islam has been tainted by other influences. The Muslims are behaving like Christians, I'm afraid.

FI: What appeals to you in Islam?

Clarke: Historically, Islam had a great deal of tolerance for other views and offered the world its priceless wisdom in the form of astronomy and algebra. And, as you know, Islam helped rescue Western civilization from the Dark Ages by preserving classical texts and transmitting them to the West. We, on the other hand, burned the library at Alexandria. If Islam hadn't fallen into internecine warfare and had gone on to conquer the rest of Europe, we'd have avoided a thousand years of Christian barbarism.

Of course, this is pre- 9/11
But it does bring out that we are not seeing Islam at its best right now.

 

[FireGarden]

I found the name of that historian who got sued.

David Irving VS Deborah Lipstadt (The Guardian April 2000)

In the trial (or at least the televised version, recreated with actors on the BBC) they used a clip from an interview with Irving where he says something similiar to C4ts. I haven't been able to find the exact quote.

 

[FireGarden]

I found what I was looking for.
It's on this page under the heading I've used for the link title.

(vii) Speech in Tampa, Florida, 6 October 1995, (p 16-19).

And it's very similar to what C4ts said.

And what these people don't understand, by way of conclusion, is that they are generating anti-semitism by their behaviour, and they can't understand it. They wonder where the anti-semitism comes from, and it comes from themselves, from their behaviour.

He says plenty more just like it. (And worse, though I would not want to tar C4ts with that brush)

Of course, Irving has no shame about what he does. He gets alot of support and does his best to pick audiences where he is preaching to the converted.And he's so delusional he thought that he could win a court case to prove he's not a racist! (Well, specifically to prove he's not a holocaust denier - but the judge concluded that he was also a racist)