ISIS teenager wants to come home

[Vixen]

I really hope she can win the appeal.

How she isn't seen to be a victim of grooming and trafficking is beyond me. The fact we have rendered her stateless is a public disgrace.

Fully agree. These teenage girls were sent to be child brides. To lose three babies and be stuck in no-mans-land for all of this time is punishment enough.

The latest update from the court (special tribunal SIAC):

Samantha Knights KC, representing Begum, said on Monday that this “over-hasty” decision made Begum “effectively an exile for life”.

She told the hearing: “This case concerns a British child aged 15 who was persuaded, influenced and affected with her friends by a determined and effective [IS] propaganda machine.”

Begum’s lawyers said in written arguments that the Home Office had revoked her citizenship “without seeking to investigate and determine, still less consider, whether she was a child victim of trafficking”.

They also argued there was overwhelming evidence that Begum was “recruited, transported, transferred, harboured and received in Syria for the purposes of sexual exploitation”.

GUARDIAN

These tribunals tend to do whatever the government directs them to do, unfortunately.

 

[Wudang]

Schrodinger's maturity: simultaneously old enough to know what she was doing when being groomed and yet not old enough to vote, drive a car, consent to sex, skip school, work more than 2 hours on a Sunday and so on.

 

[Darat]

Schrodinger's maturity: simultaneously old enough to know what she was doing when being groomed and yet not old enough to vote, drive a car, consent to sex, skip school, work more than 2 hours on a Sunday and so on.

I am sure if it was reported as: Samantha Smith a pretty girl of 15 from the Home Counties, was targeted by a paedophile serial online groomer and was convinced to run away from home, and he made arrangements for her to be smuggled to his country, then when getting to her groomer she was forced to marry a total stranger and have their kids the likes of the DM would be shouting at the rooftops to get her home back to the loving embrace of her family. Put in the word "Muslim" and hey presto it all magically changes.

 

[theprestige]

Schrodinger's maturity: simultaneously old enough to know what she was doing when being groomed and yet not old enough to vote, drive a car, consent to sex, skip school, work more than 2 hours on a Sunday and so on.

I think you're misrepresenting the purpose of the legal age of maturity. We all understand that children mature at differing rates. The point of setting a specific age of maturity in law is to have some sort of reasonable transition point consistently defined. In many cases it's extremely arbitrary, or premised on some vague collective sense of morality that has never been completely and clearly thought-through.

The legal age of maturity thus has nothing to do with the questions of how much agency or maturity she actually had, and can tell us nothing useful about how to answer them.

The "Schrodinger's X" formulation implies a variety of possible answers, none of which will be known until a proper examination is made. Is that what you meant by it?

 

[Segnosaur]

Schrodinger's maturity: simultaneously old enough to know what she was doing when being groomed and yet not old enough to vote, drive a car, consent to sex, skip school, work more than 2 hours on a Sunday and so on.

Here's the thing...

In general western society usually extends rights/responsibilities/etc. to children gradually over time, as we think/hope their brains can handle it.

We hope that children who haven't yet reached the maturity level to handle an automobile at least can recognize that certain crimes is wrong (thus we can charge children under 13 with crimes like murder.) Here in some provinces in Canada we allow them to vote before they can Drink, because we think making proper decisions about alcohol is more complex than a decision about who to vote for.

In the case of a teenager who wants to join ISIS... its true that they haven't yet reached the age to drive. The question is have they at least reached the maturity level to understand that "going to live with a bunch of murdering fundies is bad".

Put it this way... if instead of going to join ISIS, how would she be treated by the legal system if she were told by ISIS recruiters "stay in England and kill people there". Would she be seen as an innocent victim and let off scot free as a victim of grooming? Or would they say "you might have been influenced, but even at your young age you should have recognized it was wrong"

 

[Wudang]

I think you're misrepresenting the purpose of the legal age of maturity. We all understand that children mature at differing rates. The point of setting a specific age of maturity in law is to have some sort of reasonable transition point consistently defined. In many cases it's extremely arbitrary, or premised on some vague collective sense of morality that has never been completely and clearly thought-through.

The legal age of maturity thus has nothing to do with the questions of how much agency or maturity she actually had, and can tell us nothing useful about how to answer them.

But they do tell us something of how society judges an average person at certain ages.

The "Schrodinger's X" formulation implies a variety of possible answers, none of which will be known until a proper examination is made. Is that what you meant by it?

No. Schrodinger's cat was a thought experiment involving 2 discrete states which exist simultaneously until examined and then the wave function collapses and we have one state.
So is a 15 year old mature enough to make decisions on their own?
Leave school? No.
Work more than 2 hours on a Sunday? No.
Purchase alcohol? No.
Be immune to grooming gangs while Muslim? Yes.

The Births and Deaths Registration Amendment Act (No 1 of 2002), a ‘minor’ is someone under the age of 18. And

When a minor signs a contract that is ‘for his or her benefit at the time of his or her participation’, it will be presumptively binding despite the age of the signatory.

However, this exception is subject to the Act, which requires the minor to not lack (by reason of youth) the understanding necessary for their participation in the contract. This basically means that they must understand what they are doing and the obligations that come with signing the contract.

IANAL so https://www.sprintlaw.co.uk/articles/can-a-minor-sign-a-contract/

Note further down that a minor may repudiate a contract when they turn 18 if it is not of benefit to them.

 

[theprestige]

But they do tell us something of how society judges an average person at certain ages.

Something, maybe.

And we still understand the difference between an average judgement for average outcomes, and individual judgements when a case-by-case approach is necessary.

No. Schrodinger's cat was a thought experiment involving 2 discrete states which exist simultaneously until examined and then the wave function collapses and we have one state.
So is a 15 year old mature enough to make decisions on their own?
Leave school? No.
Work more than 2 hours on a Sunday? No.
Purchase alcohol? No.
Be immune to grooming gangs while Muslim? Yes.

The Births and Deaths Registration Amendment Act (No 1 of 2002), a ‘minor’ is someone under the age of 18. And

IANAL so https://www.sprintlaw.co.uk/articles/can-a-minor-sign-a-contract/

Note further down that a minor may repudiate a contract when they turn 18 if it is not of benefit to them.

You missed my point completely. Unfortunately I have no idea how to express it any more clearly than it's already been expressed by me and Segnosaur. Better luck next time, I guess.

 

[Wudang]

In the case of a teenager who wants to join ISIS... its true that they haven't yet reached the age to drive. The question is have they at least reached the maturity level to understand that "going to live with a bunch of murdering fundies is bad".

Put it this way... if instead of going to join ISIS, how would she be treated by the legal system if she were told by ISIS recruiters "stay in England and kill people there". Would she be seen as an innocent victim and let off scot free as a victim of grooming? Or would they say "you might have been influenced, but even at your young age you should have recognized it was wrong"

Yes but was it sold to her as "going to live with a bunch of murdering fundies"? Or was her head filled with tales of supporting the suffering in Syria of those bombed with UK-supplied ordnance?
We have an MI5 agent reportedly saying

"MI5 are experts in national security threats and not experts in the definition of trafficking," Witness E replied.

He continued: "Victims can very much be threats if indeed someone is a victim of trafficking."

Witness E pointed out that Ms Begum must have been aware of the Islamic State group's atrocities, including beheadings of Western hostages, by the time she travelled.

"I do think she would have known what she was doing and would have had agency in doing so," the MI5 officer added.

I would take the last statement cautiously in light of the first. Is she both a victim and a danger? Quite possibly but I would argue that the main argument seems to be that she was exposed for a log time to IS propaganda but this should be offset against the possibility that the roots of this are in a childish error. People at that age and even older are liable to be " children ardent for some desperate glory," as Owen put it.

tl;dr She deserves a hearing where the issue of grooming is heard and to be able to defend herself. IMO.




*https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63699503

 

[Darat]

Here's the thing...

In general western society usually extends rights/responsibilities/etc. to children gradually over time, as we think/hope their brains can handle it.

We hope that children who haven't yet reached the maturity level to handle an automobile at least can recognize that certain crimes is wrong (thus we can charge children under 13 with crimes like murder.) Here in some provinces in Canada we allow them to vote before they can Drink, because we think making proper decisions about alcohol is more complex than a decision about who to vote for.

In the case of a teenager who wants to join ISIS... its true that they haven't yet reached the age to drive. The question is have they at least reached the maturity level to understand that "going to live with a bunch of murdering fundies is bad".

Put it this way... if instead of going to join ISIS, how would she be treated by the legal system if she were told by ISIS recruiters "stay in England and kill people there". Would she be seen as an innocent victim and let off scot free as a victim of grooming? Or would they say "you might have been influenced, but even at your young age you should have recognized it was wrong"

But she didn't kill anyone and she wasn't recruited i.e. groomed to kill anyone. (Or at least there has been no indication that the UK government thinks she did.)

We do know she was groomed to be an under-age bride. Grooming is an insidious process that undermines your rationality. For example something I posted in a different thread but illustrates how grooming warps someone's judgement.

...snip...most of the male kids involved in the church were abused at one time and another. A few “chosen ones” would be taken on The National Pilgrimage and be swapped around like playing cards with the other abusers attending. Yet many of the kids would be disappointed if they weren’t picked to go on the ‘pilgrimage’.
...snip.... grooming is so insidious, so nasty and warps victim’s judgement in ways hard to believe, even when you see the results close up. And the harm caused is lifelong.

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

I really hope she can win the appeal.

How she isn't seen to be a victim of grooming and trafficking is beyond me. The fact we have rendered her stateless is a public disgrace.

Because it would leave school authorities, social care and ultimately the government of England open for a dereliction of care lawsuit.

Also it would show the state to have been not very serious in tackling extremism.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Yes but was it sold to her as "going to live with a bunch of murdering fundies"? ...

Pretty safe to assume not. She would hardly have gone if they'd said "By the way, we're the baddies".

I presume they sold it as going to do God's will: Go and live with the people who are battling and defeating God's wicked enemies. Help them to build the perfect Caliphate where everyone can live in peace and harmony following all of God's laws in just the ways He wants.

 

[Lplus]

Pretty safe to assume not. She would hardly have gone if they'd said "By the way, we're the baddies".

I presume they sold it as going to do God's will: Go and live with the people who are battling and defeating God's wicked enemies. Help them to build the perfect Caliphate where everyone can live in peace and harmony following all of God's laws in just the ways He wants.

And having discovered the reality, no doubt she's distanced herself from the caliphate and condemned it in the strongest possible terms....

Should be no problem then, and a good chance of a payout for being denied her statehood.

 

[Segnosaur]

In the case of a teenager who wants to join ISIS... its true that they haven't yet reached the age to drive. The question is have they at least reached the maturity level to understand that "going to live with a bunch of murdering fundies is bad".

Put it this way... if instead of going to join ISIS, how would she be treated by the legal system if she were told by ISIS recruiters "stay in England and kill people there". Would she be seen as an innocent victim and let off scot free as a victim of grooming? Or would they say "you might have been influenced, but even at your young age you should have recognized it was wrong"

Yes but was it sold to her as "going to live with a bunch of murdering fundies"? Or was her head filled with tales of supporting the suffering in Syria of those bombed with UK-supplied ordnance?

True, it probably was not stated as "come live with a bunch of murdering fundies". But your very own reference points out the following:

Witness E pointed out that Ms Begum must have been aware of the Islamic State group's atrocities, including beheadings of Western hostages, by the time she travelled.

Its not like the activities of ISIS were all that secret. How far should we push the "she just didn't know about the bad stuff" argument?

And if you accept that she was genuinely ignorant of what ISIS was, how do we know that she won't have other bouts of ignorance in the future?

 

[Vixen]

Here's the thing...

In general western society usually extends rights/responsibilities/etc. to children gradually over time, as we think/hope their brains can handle it.

We hope that children who haven't yet reached the maturity level to handle an automobile at least can recognize that certain crimes is wrong (thus we can charge children under 13 with crimes like murder.) Here in some provinces in Canada we allow them to vote before they can Drink, because we think making proper decisions about alcohol is more complex than a decision about who to vote for.

In the case of a teenager who wants to join ISIS... its true that they haven't yet reached the age to drive. The question is have they at least reached the maturity level to understand that "going to live with a bunch of murdering fundies is bad".

Put it this way... if instead of going to join ISIS, how would she be treated by the legal system if she were told by ISIS recruiters "stay in England and kill people there". Would she be seen as an innocent victim and let off scot free as a victim of grooming? Or would they say "you might have been influenced, but even at your young age you should have recognized it was wrong"

I disagree. Whilst someone aged 15 might know the difference between right and wrong, they are not mature enough to recognise when they are being groomed or exploited, especially if they have had a sheltered life, centred around school and homework.

 

[Vixen]

Yes but was it sold to her as "going to live with a bunch of murdering fundies"? Or was her head filled with tales of supporting the suffering in Syria of those bombed with UK-supplied ordnance?
We have an MI5 agent reportedly saying

I would take the last statement cautiously in light of the first. Is she both a victim and a danger? Quite possibly but I would argue that the main argument seems to be that she was exposed for a log time to IS propaganda but this should be offset against the possibility that the roots of this are in a childish error. People at that age and even older are liable to be " children ardent for some desperate glory," as Owen put it.

tl;dr She deserves a hearing where the issue of grooming is heard and to be able to defend herself. IMO.




*https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63699503

People in M15 might be good at recognising threats to national security. However, on the level of human trafficking of minors, I am not sure they are the go-to. All the spooks I ever knew are fiercely patriotic, so the M15 representative in court today might well just be expressing unconscious bias, as ISIS were a grave threat some years ago and their crimes hideous.

 

[Vixen]

But she didn't kill anyone and she wasn't recruited i.e. groomed to kill anyone. (Or at least there has been no indication that the UK government thinks she did.)

We do know she was groomed to be an under-age bride. Grooming is an insidious process that undermines your rationality. For example something I posted in a different thread but illustrates how grooming warps someone's judgement.

Good point. Friend of mine at a boarding school was groomed into a relationship with an attractive man, when she was aged fourteen. It wasn't until she was well into adulthood that she realised he had groomed her and of course, almost ruined her life when he dumped her. At the time, she was incredibly flattered being singled out for special attention, not knowing the ways of the world.

 

[Vixen]

And having discovered the reality, no doubt she's distanced herself from the caliphate and condemned it in the strongest possible terms....

Should be no problem then, and a good chance of a payout for being denied her statehood.

Nonsense. Once in the Caliphate there was no escape. The other aspect of the grooming was that her friends were all for it, too. This is a type of mob mentality when teenagers think, hey, my friends are doing it, it must be fun and it must be normal.

 

[Vixen]

True, it probably was not stated as "come live with a bunch of murdering fundies". But your very own reference points out the following:

Witness E pointed out that Ms Begum must have been aware of the Islamic State group's atrocities, including beheadings of Western hostages, by the time she travelled.

Its not like the activities of ISIS were all that secret. How far should we push the "she just didn't know about the bad stuff" argument?

And if you accept that she was genuinely ignorant of what ISIS was, how do we know that she won't have other bouts of ignorance in the future?

Witness E is speaking from their own adult perspective. Schoolkids don't necessarily keep up with the news on any deep level. Most likely Begum and her friends saw it as some kind of exciting Utopia, and crossing the border at Turkey, some daring adventure: all young people together against the world.

 

[Segnosaur]

She is now asking for forgiveness from the British people and offering to help the British government fight terrorism IF she is allowed to return home. Couldn't she help the British government from where she is now, as a sign of good faith?

I just question what she thinks she might do to "fight terrorism".

I mean, its not like she can help give intelligence to help defeat ISIS. She has been in a refugee camp for so long that anything she might have known (about ISIS activities in the middle east, or about their efforts to traffic in girls) is probably years out of date (and probably already known by various intelligence agencies).

I suppose she could go on a "don't do what I did" tour, but I'm not really sure how useful that would be.

 

[Vixen]

I just question what she thinks she might do to "fight terrorism".

I mean, its not like she can help give intelligence to help defeat ISIS. She has been in a refugee camp for so long that anything she might have known (about ISIS activities in the middle east, or about their efforts to traffic in girls) is probably years out of date (and probably already known by various intelligence agencies).

I suppose she could go on a "don't do what I did" tour, but I'm not really sure how useful that would be.

I can see her as a good role model for today's teenagers now that she has seen the consequences of her actions.