ISIS teenager wants to come home

[Silly Green Monkey]

At 15...... you're really not likely to be drunk, or driving. What do you think 15 is? For most girls, it's the tail end of puberty, for boys often it's just beginning in earnest. In the US, 15 is the usual age of high-school sophomores, though some may be freshmen. Age, crimes, chronology, comparisons....anything else you need an explanation of?

 

[SleepingWeasle]

At 15...... you're really not likely to be drunk, or driving. What do you think 15 is? For most girls, it's the tail end of puberty, for boys often it's just beginning in earnest. In the US, 15 is the usual age of high-school sophomores, though some may be freshmen. Age, crimes, chronology, comparisons....anything else you need an explanation of?

So when you don't have an answer, you make up "facts" that are clearly nonsense?

 

[theprestige]

Who claimed a perfect analogy is necessary?

I did. As you demonstrated, a less-than-perfect analogy allows for dismissal on spurious grounds of its imperfection, even when it is actually fit for purpose.

Declaring war on another country or coulture changes all kinds of things ( weather right or wrong) as long as your side is the winners. I honestly can't believe this is news to you.

Stipulated. What's news to me (in the sense that I haven't seen it yet) is your explanation for why ISIS declarations of war change Begum's right to be present for her trial.

Even if the court's conclusion is ultimately that she is responsible as an adult for her part in ISIS's war, I still think she's entitled to be present in court for those proceedings.

And I don't think her citizenship should be in question anyway, any more than it's in question for any other traitor.

And I don't think that she should be held responsible as an adult for stupid choices she made as a child. Nor do I think she should be preemptively condemned for subsequent choices she may have made where there's a distinct possibility of duress.

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

How specifically did they control her mind and body before she betrayed her family and country?

She betrayed her family and country before she left to join theml. But of course, everyone already knows that.

My entire point is that at the time she betrayed get country and family, ISIS wasn't controlling her. You have yet to make any argument as to how they were.

Here you go. Enjoy your argument with yourself. Since the obvious apparently isn't so obvious, the first quote shows you putting control of both mind AND BODY before betrayal. The second and third put betrayal before control of her body. A body which had been a teenager for two years, nowhere near graduating secondary education, and which was brutalized once ISIS *did* have control. My point is that she is a victim, based on her age at the time and what happened to her as a result (which I imagine showed her everything she'd been told was lies quite quickly).

 

[acbytesla]

So what? If I drive drunk and kill a family at 15 do I get to just say "Im just a kid, no harm?"

Maybe. If you're 15, you are likely to be tried as a juvenile. We tend to be much more lenient. What if you're 7 and you kill someone with a gun? This is not an easy question.

But this isn't that. This sounds like a 15 year old without a clue and no idea what she was doing.

 

[SleepingWeasle]

I did. As you demonstrated, a less-than-perfect analogy allows for dismissal on spurious grounds of its imperfection, even when it is actually fit for purpose.


Stipulated. What's news to me (in the sense that I haven't seen it yet) is your explanation for why ISIS declarations of war change Begum's right to be present for her trial.
Even if the court's conclusion is ultimately that she is responsible as an adult for her part in ISIS's war, I still think she's entitled to be present in court for those proceedings.

And I don't think her citizenship should be in question anyway, any more than it's in question for any other traitor.

And I don't think that she should be held responsible as an adult for stupid choices she made as a child. Nor do I think she should be preemptively condemned for subsequent choices she may have made where there's a distinct possibility of duress.

Where did I claim that?

 

[acbytesla]

I did. As you demonstrated, a less-than-perfect analogy allows for dismissal on spurious grounds of its imperfection, even when it is actually fit for purpose.


Stipulated. What's news to me (in the sense that I haven't seen it yet) is your explanation for why ISIS declarations of war change Begum's right to be present for her trial.

Even if the court's conclusion is ultimately that she is responsible as an adult for her part in ISIS's war, I still think she's entitled to be present in court for those proceedings.

And I don't think her citizenship should be in question anyway, any more than it's in question for any other traitor.

And I don't think that she should be held responsible as an adult for stupid choices she made as a child. Nor do I think she should be preemptively condemned for subsequent choices she may have made where there's a distinct possibility of duress.

Agreed. Well said.

 

[SleepingWeasle]

Here you go. Enjoy your argument with yourself. Since the obvious apparently isn't so obvious, the first quote shows you putting control of both mind AND BODY before betrayal. The second and third put betrayal before control of her body. A body which had been a teenager for two years, nowhere near graduating secondary education, and which was brutalized once ISIS *did* have control. My point is that she is a victim, based on her age at the time and what happened to her as a result (which I imagine showed her everything she'd been told was lies quite quickly).

Clearly, you can't even be bothered to understand your own arguements.

 

[theprestige]

Really? You really believe that?

Yes.

Please show how every crime is a betrayal of one's country.

Breaking a society's laws is a betrayal of that society and its values. I'm not sure how you could see it any other way.

Of course, I know you're being dishonest and won't.

Dude, slow down.

Where did I argue anything about due process? It it isn't too much trouble, please stop implying I'm saying things I haven't saidl

Fair enough. I was going to say it's implicit in your arguments, but at this point I'm not actually sure what you're arguing for.

Are you arguing that she shouldn't be brought home to stand trial? Are you arguing that her citizenship should be stripped from her in absentia? If not, then I apologize. Carry on with whatever it is you're arguing for.

 

[SleepingWeasle]

Maybe. If you're 15, you are likely to be tried as a juvenile. We tend to be much more lenient. What if you're 7 and you kill someone with a gun? This is not an easy question.

But this isn't that. This sounds like a 15 year old without a clue and no idea what she was doing.

If only I argued that being a minor was usefuly in sentencing. Oh wait, I did! Why do you continue to be dishonest? Are you unwilling, or unable to accept that some people have different opinions than you on topics without needing them to disagree with every point of a topic?

 

[theprestige]

Where did I claim that?

It's implicit in this exchange:

Consider this - a 15 year old girl being groomed by a pimp, runs away from home to be with her pimp, he abuses her for a few years. That woman should have to show that she has been reformed before we let her back into the UK?

Pimps have declared war against our countries? If not, I don't see how your silly comparison makes any sense.

Darat is arguing that she should be brought back to the UK for the reasons he lays out in his analogy. You rebut his argument by appealing to ISIS' declaration of war. Unless you don't rebut the claim? It's hard to tell, with the sarcasm (or is it sarcasm?).

Anyway, do you agree with Darat, myself, and others that she should be brought home to stand trial? Do you agree that she probably should not lose her citizenship? If you don't agree with these things, why not?

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

So when you don't have an answer, you make up "facts" that are clearly nonsense?

Really, you're going to claim that 15, *six years* before legal age to buy alcohol in the US and still three years before it's legal in the UK, is somehow perfectly expected to liquor up and go driving (15 is also too young to drive in both countries) AND that the law has no provision for age and would be forced to either charge that 15yr old as an adult or let him go?

 

[SleepingWeasle]

Yes.


Breaking a society's laws is a betrayal of that society and its values. I'm not sure how you could see it any other way.


Dude, slow down.


Fair enough. I was going to say it's implicit in your arguments, but at this point I'm not actually sure what you're arguing for. Are you arguing that she shouldn't be brought home to stand trial? Are you arguing that her citizenship should be stripped from her in absentia? If not, then I apologize. Carry on with whatever it is you're arguing for.

Ignoring all the other idiocy above, the hilighted is exactly the problem here. Rather than stpoint to ask what my position is, you assign positions to me.

 

[theprestige]

Her guilt and punishment isn't important to me.

Okay, then: What is important to you? What exactly are you arguing for? Do you think she should be allowed to be present for her trial? Do you think she should keep her citizenship?

 

[theprestige]

So what? If I drive drunk and kill a family at 15 do I get to just say "Im just a kid, no harm?"

In most western countries, you get to say, "I'm a juvenile, my judgement has not fully matured, please show leniency and give me another chance at responsible citizenship."

I honestly can't believe this is news to you. Nor can I believe you find it objectionable

 

[SleepingWeasle]

It's implicit in this exchange:





Darat is arguing that she should be brought back to the UK for the reasons he lays out in his analogy. You rebut his argument by appealing to ISIS' declaration of war. Unless you don't rebut the claim? It's hard to tell, with the sarcasm (or is it sarcasm?).

Anyway, do you agree with Darat, myself, and others that she should be brought home to stand trial? Do you agree that she probably should not lose her citizenship? If you don't agree with these things, why not?

I agree that she should stand trial,. But certainly not for any of the reasons claimed in Darats analogy. And no, she certainly shouldn't lose her citizenship in my opinion. Just because I agree with the end result doesn't mean I agree with the nonsensical way people "reason" themselves into arriving at that conclusion. The world isn't divided into "Us vs them" no matter how bad some people want that to be the case.

 

[theprestige]

Also, since hen does this matter, except for sentencing?

The issue we're debating is the UK government's decision to effectively pass sentence without due process. If there is evidence for these things, this is where it matters, and she should be allowed to be present at the trial when this evidence is presented and arguments are made about the disposition of her rights.

 

[SleepingWeasle]

In most western countries, you get to say, "I'm a juvenile, my judgement has not fully matured, please show leniency and give me another chance at responsible citizenship."

I honestly can't believe this is news to you. Nor can I believe you find it objectionable

I'm glad you don't believe that, because it's something you completely made up in your head.

 

[SleepingWeasle]

The issue we're debating is the UK government's decision to effectively pass sentence without due process. If there is evidence for these things, this is where it matters, and she should be allowed to be present at the trial when this evidence is presented and arguments are made about the disposition of her rights.

Bullcrap. It has been claimed that ISIS was already in control of her mind and body before she betrayed her family and country. Why the constant need to lie?

 

[theprestige]

Ignoring all the other idiocy above, the hilighted is exactly the problem here. Rather than stpoint to ask what my position is, you assign positions to me.

And then I admit my mistake, and ask you what your position is. Don't overlook that part of our conversation.