Isaac Asimov on anti-semitism

Adrian Lopez

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All this talk about Israel and anti-semitism reminds me of something Isaac Asimov wrote in his autobiography.

It is a fact that Hitler's excesses, not only the racism but also the belligerent nationalism and the increasingly obvious rampant paranoia, aroused disgust and anger among a considerable number of Americans. Even if the government of the United States was on the whole non-committal about the tragic fate of Jews in Europe, its people were increasingly opposed to Hitler. That at least is how it seemed to me, and I took some comfort in that.

I tried also not to let myself become unpleasantly obsessed with the idea that antisemitism was the major problem in the world. Around me, many Jews separated the people of the world into two categories: Jews and others, and that was it. There were many who did not care about any problem except antisemitism, wherever and whenever it arose.

For me, it was evident that prejudice was instead a universal phenomenon, and that all minorities, all groups that were not at the top of the social ladder, were potential victims of it.
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...

I was invited to a round-table discussion whose participants included Elie Wiesel, who survived the Holocaust and hasn't spoken about anything else since. That day, he irritated me by claiming that you couldn't trust academics, or technicians, because they had helped make possible the Holocaust.

...

I let the others argue for a moment while I brooded over my resentment; then, unable to contain myself any longer, I spoke up: "Mr. Wiesel, you're wrong; the fact that a group of people has suffered appalling persecution does not mean it is inherently good and innocent. All that the persecution proves is that this group was in a position of weakness. If the Jews were in a position of strength, who knows if they wouldn't become persecutors?"

To which Wiesel replied, very angrily: "Give me one example of the Jews persecuting anyone!"

Naturally, I was expecting this. "At the time of the Maccabees, in the second century BCE, John Hyrcanus of Judea conquered Edom and gave the Edomites the choice of conversion to Judaism, or death. Not being idiots, the Edomites converted, but afterwards they were still treated as inferiors because even though they had become Jews, they were still originally Edomites".

Wiesel, even more upset, said: "There is no other example."

"There is no other period in history where Jews have exercised power", I replied. "The only time they had it, they behaved just like the others."

That put an end to the discussion. I would add however that the audience was entirely on the side of Elie Wiesel.

I could have gone further. Alluded to the fate of the Canaanites at the hands of the Israelites in the time of David and Solomon, for example. And if I'd been able to predict the future, I could have mentioned what is happening in Israel today. The Jews of America would have a clearer understanding of the situation if they could imagine the roles reversed: with Palestinians governing the country and Jews throwing stones at them with the energy of despair.
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That said, the Jews are not alone in this. If I'm sensitive to this particular problem, it's because I'm Jewish myself. In fact, this phenomenon is universal. In Roman times, when the first Christians were persecuted, they pleaded for tolerance. But when Christianity prevailed, did tolerance reign? Not on your life. Instead, persecution was soon going on in the opposite direction. Or take the case of the Bulgarians, who demanded freedom from their dictatorial regime, but once they had it used it to aggress against their Turkish minority. Or the people of Azerbaijan, who demanded of the Soviet Union the freedom denied it by the central government, only to immediately attack the Armenian minority.
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I thought so. Asimov was saying that those in power have a tendency to abuse it. That it's mistaken to consider any culture or nation "good" simply because they've not had power, and haven't been in a position to abuse another culture or nation.

Seems a decent point to me.
 
slingblade said:
I thought so. Asimov was saying that those in power have a tendency to abuse it. That it's mistaken to consider any culture or nation "good" simply because they've not had power, and haven't been in a position to abuse another culture or nation.

Seems a decent point to me.
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That is a good point, but a rather obvious one. At least for me.
 
Adrian Lopez said:
What's the point of any thread other than to discuss things or highlight things we consider important? You are welcome not to participate, if you prefer.
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The problem is that it is not clear what you consider to be of such importance here. Care to actually make the point yourself?
 
Doctor Evil said:
The problem is that it is not clear what you consider to be of such importance here. Care to actually make the point yourself?
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As I hinted above, this thread is intended as a response to those who like to cry "anti-semite" at anybody who dares to criticize Israel. I offer Asimov's words as the words of a Jewish author who rejects such muddled thinking and who recognizes his own people's capacity for harm when put in a position to do so, just like any other group. I wish to highlight the fact that cruelty is a human problem neither unique to Palestinian terrorists nor alien to the people of Israel. Given recent events, I believe the point is quite relevant.
 
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I don't think the issue is that when Jews gain power, they act like everyone else.

The issue is that we as such consistent victims of hatred and extremism, should know better than to act like everyone else.

At least, one would hope. I would also hope African-Americans would not be racist, due to their suffering for 300 years. But there are plenty of black bigots in the USA. And some studies actually show a higher percentage of racism amoung African-Americans than whites. Go figure.
 
Adrian Lopez said:
As I hinted above, this thread is intended as a response to those who like to cry "anti-semite" at anybody who dares to criticize Israel.
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Hmm, who are those mythical people. Are you sure they would cry antisemitism for any criticism of Israel. Perhaps this may depend on the nature of the criticism?

It seems to me that you seek an easy way out. The only way to find out whether a specific criticism is antisemitic is to discuss the details of said criticism. Instead you seem engaging in a mirror image of what you blame the 'other side' of doing.

I offer Asimov's words as the words of a Jewish author who rejects such muddled thinking and recognizes his own people's ability to do harm when put in a position to do so. I wish to highlight the fact that cruelty is a human problem neither unique to Palestinian terrorists nor alien to the people of Israel.
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Actual, you make a logical error here. In fact, a rather trivial one. The fact that you can find prejudiced people in every community has nothing to do with the question whether a certain criticism of Israel is either i) factual and ii) motivated by bias.

I am also piqued by the fact that you have selected Asimov because he is Jewish. (See bold part.) Why would that be relevant?
 
Adrian Lopez said:
As I hinted above, this thread is intended as a response to those who like to cry "anti-semite" at anybody who dares to criticize Israel.
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Here's a thought: don't single out Israel for special abuse, and cries of "anti-semite!" won't figure prominently in critiques of your position.

Not personally, of course. I mean the generic "you". If the shoe doesn't fit, and all that.
 
Adrian does have a point, as there is already a thread that labels Jews who are against right-wing extremist goals as being "self-hating Jews".

People with such a mentality will clearly label anyone and everyone who disagrees with right-wing Zionist agendas, as being an anti-Semite and/or a self-hating Jew.
 
Doctor Evil said:
Hmm, who are those mythical people. Are you sure they would cry antisemitism for any criticism of Israel. Perhaps this may depend on the nature of the criticism?
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At least for the threads in question, the nature of the criticism clearly had nothing at all with it triggering accusations of anti-semitism.

I am also piqued by the fact that you have selected Asimov because he is Jewish. (See bold part.) Why would that be relevant?
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Asimov certainly thought it was relevant (see "if I'm sensitive to this particular problem" in the quoted text), and there's also the fact that it's not as easy to accuse a Jewish person of being anti-semitic than it is to accuse people like me of the same.
 
theprestige said:
Here's a thought: don't single out Israel for special abuse, and cries of "anti-semite!" won't figure prominently in critiques of your position.
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That's just it, though. Complaining about recent actions by the state of Israel is hardly the same thing as singling out Israel for "special abuse". For evidence of bias you need actual contradictory statements concerning one group versus the other, or at least clear evidence of indifference concerning the actions of one but not the other. No evidence of either fault may be found in the other threads in question, and I take personal offense to being characterized as an anti-semite. That's why I started this thread.
 
Adrian Lopez said:
At least for the threads in question, the nature of the criticism clearly had nothing at all with it triggering accusations of anti-semitism.
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Which threads? Be specific.

Asimov certainly thought it was relevant (see "if I'm sensitive to this particular problem" in the quoted text), and there's also the fact that it's not as easy to accuse a Jewish person of being anti-semitic than it is to accuse people like me of the same.
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What is that supposed to mean? And you seem to have ignored that bit:
Doctor Evil said:
Actual, you make a logical error here. In fact, a rather trivial one. The fact that you can find prejudiced people in every community has nothing to do with the question whether a certain criticism of Israel is either i) factual and ii) motivated by bias.
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Asimov's point was that anyone can have prejudices. That is true. Nonetheless, it is completely unrelated to whether some criticism of Israel is antisemitic or not. The connection you are trying to create here is spurious.
 
I wonder how many of Dr. Evil's 1500 posts are useless trolling similar to what he displayed in this thread.
 
Doctor Evil said:
Hmm, who are those mythical people. Are you sure they would cry antisemitism for any criticism of Israel. Perhaps this may depend on the nature of the criticism?

It seems to me that you seek an easy way out. The only way to find out whether a specific criticism is antisemitic is to discuss the details of said criticism. Instead you seem engaging in a mirror image of what you blame the 'other side' of doing.



Actual, you make a logical error here. In fact, a rather trivial one. The fact that you can find prejudiced people in every community has nothing to do with the question whether a certain criticism of Israel is either i) factual and ii) motivated by bias.

I am also piqued by the fact that you have selected Asimov because he is Jewish. (See bold part.) Why would that be relevant?
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I thought the point was obvious to you? Obviously, it wasn't.
 
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