Split Thread Is Ukraine to blame for Putin's invasion

[Michel H]

Arnold Schwarzenegger's message (its text may be found here: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/03/schwarzenegger-russia-ukraine-war-message/627100/) was fairly good.

But it does contain some approximations and inaccuracies. Perhaps he has been told lies himself. If he was still in Germany, he could not read the Russian information website RT.com (without a VPN) because of European censorship. Having just one source of information is not ideal.

If he gets his information from forums, then he might get a distorted view because of censorship done by "moderators" who have a political agenda.

He said:

I know that your government has told you this is a war to de-Nazify Ukraine. This is not true. De-Nazify Ukraine? It is a country with a Jewish president—a Jewish president, I might add, whose father’s three brothers were all murdered by the Nazis. Ukraine did not start this war. Neither did nationalists or Nazis. Those in power in the Kremlin started this civil war; this is not the Russian people’s war.
...
To President Putin, I say: You started this war. You’re leading this war. You can stop this war now.

So he said that "Ukraine did not start this war". But is this true? (or only half-true)

A reminder of a few facts:

Ukraine cut off the fresh water supply to Crimea by damming a canal that had supplied 85% of the peninsula's needs before Moscow annexed Crimea in 2014.

(https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...dam-that-blocked-water-crimea-ria-2022-02-26/)
(possible crime against humanity by Ukraine)


About sanctions imposed on Russia before 2022:

... sanctions have hit the Russian economy badly. Since 2014, it has grown by an average of 0.3 percent per year, while the global average was 2.3 percent per year. They have slashed foreign credits and foreign direct investment, and may have reduced Russia’s economic growth by 2.5–3 percent a year; that is, about $50 billion per year. The Russian economy is not likely to grow significantly again until the Kremlin has persuaded the West to ease the sanctions.
...
As part of the two last defense bills, the US Congress adopted severe sanctions on suppliers to Nord Stream 2, the Russian gas pipeline from Russia to Germany through the Baltic Sea, which are likely to stop the completion of that pipeline.

The United States and the EU responded to the Russian annexation of Crimea with sanctions against Russian officials, individuals, and enterprises held responsible for the annexation, as well as anybody pursuing business dealings with Crimea. They were joined by several allies, such as Australia, Canada, and Norway. Ideally, these sanctions would have compelled Russia to withdraw from Crimea, but nobody believed that would happen in the near term. Their impact was limited to Crimea, and did not harm the Russian economy. Instead, the more realistic goal of the Western sanctions on Russia’s annexation of Crimea, understood within the Barack Obama administration, was to persistently isolate Crimea economically and politically, and that goal has been accomplished. Crimea’s foreign trade plummeted by 90 percent. Housing prices slumped, while prices of goods and services rose because of supply problems. Annual tourism shrunk, and now comes almost entirely from Russia. The biggest Russian state banks, Sberbank and VTB, have stayed away to avoid the US and EU sanctions. Instead, the already sanctioned Bank Rossiya, owned by friends of Putin from St. Petersburg, and a few minor Russian state banks, notably the Russian National Commercial Bank, operate there.42 The prominent Russian economist Sergey Aleksashenko assesses that Russian financial support to Crimea has so far cost about $5 billion per year.

(https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/in-...rt/the-impact-of-western-sanctions-on-russia/, date: May 3, 2021, before the Russian invasion of Ukraine)

So Ukraine (with its Western allies) waged a humanitarian and economic war on Russia in 2014, after its annexation of Crimea, even though it is well known that Crimeans wanted to join Russia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum#Post-referendum_polls).

In addition, after the Donetsk and Lugansk people's republics (of mostly Russian-speaking Donbass) declared independence in 2014, instead of dialogue and granting them self-governance (perhaps after a honest referendum), Kiev chose to start a military offensive against them ...

 

[dudalb]

Arnold Schwarzenegger's message (its text may be found here: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/03/schwarzenegger-russia-ukraine-war-message/627100/) was fairly good.

But it does contain some approximations and inaccuracies. Perhaps he has been told lies himself. If he was still in Germany, he could not read the Russian information website RT.com (without a VPN) because of European censorship. Having just one source of information is not ideal.

If he gets his information from forums, then he might get a distorted view because of censorship done by "moderators" who have a political agenda.

He said:


So he said that "Ukraine did not start this war". But is this true? (or only half-true)

A reminder of a few facts:


(https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...dam-that-blocked-water-crimea-ria-2022-02-26/)
(possible crime against humanity by Ukraine)


About sanctions imposed on Russia before 2022:

(https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/in-...rt/the-impact-of-western-sanctions-on-russia/, date: May 3, 2021, before the Russian invasion of Ukraine)

So Ukraine (with its Western allies) waged a humanitarian and economic war on Russia in 2014, after its annexation of Crimea, even though it is well known that Crimeans wanted to join Russia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum#Post-referendum_polls).

In addition, after the Donetsk and Lugansk people's republics (of mostly Russian-speaking Donbass) declared independence in 2014, instead of dialogue and granting them self-governance (perhaps after a honest referendum), Kiev chose to start a military offensive against them ...

Still pushing the Putin BS line, I see.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Arnold Schwarzenegger's message (its text may be found here: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/03/schwarzenegger-russia-ukraine-war-message/627100/) was fairly good.

But it does contain some approximations and inaccuracies. Perhaps he has been told lies himself. If he was still in Germany, he could not read the Russian information website RT.com (without a VPN) because of European censorship. Having just one source of information is not ideal.

If he gets his information from forums, then he might get a distorted view because of censorship done by "moderators" who have a political agenda.

He said:


So he said that "Ukraine did not start this war". But is this true? (or only half-true)

A reminder of a few facts:


(https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...dam-that-blocked-water-crimea-ria-2022-02-26/)
(possible crime against humanity by Ukraine)


About sanctions imposed on Russia before 2022:

(https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/in-...rt/the-impact-of-western-sanctions-on-russia/, date: May 3, 2021, before the Russian invasion of Ukraine)

So Ukraine (with its Western allies) waged a humanitarian and economic war on Russia in 2014, after its annexation of Crimea, even though it is well known that Crimeans wanted to join Russia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum#Post-referendum_polls).

In addition, after the Donetsk and Lugansk people's republics (of mostly Russian-speaking Donbass) declared independence in 2014, instead of dialogue and granting them self-governance (perhaps after a honest referendum), Kiev chose to start a military offensive against them ...

Did or did not Russia sign a Treaty with Ukraine stating to respect it's borders if it Gave it's Nuclear Weapons to Russia?
Didn't Russia Attack Crimea first?
Were not the polls and referendums conducted after Russia gained control?
We Know Russia invaded Crimea only too Protect the Port that is the only deep water port in the Black Sea, it had nothing to do with what the people Wanted or didn't want, it was a Millitary decision not a political one!

 

[angrysoba]

Did or did not Russia sign a Treaty with Ukraine stating to respect it's borders if it Gave it's Nuclear Weapons to Russia?
Didn't Russia Attack Crimea first?
Were not the polls and referendums conducted after Russia gained control?
We Know Russia invaded Crimea only too Protect the Port that is the only deep water port in the Black Sea, it had nothing to do with what the people Wanted or didn't want, it was a Millitary decision not a political one!

It doesn't count because only Pooty-woots's feelings count and he would so have got away with it if it wasn't for those Ukrainian and Western bastards who just don't care about Pooty-woots.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Still pushing the Putin BS line, I see.

I Always thought It was the American GQP Line, did I miss somethiing?

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

It doesn't count because only Pooty-woots's feelings count and he would so have got away with it if it wasn't for those Ukrainian and Western bastards who just don't care about Pooty-woots.

I know, I just sent the Ukrainians some Aluminum foil, with instructions on how to use it too stop a tank.

 

[Jimbo07]

American GQP Line, did I miss somethiing?

Yes, an O

 

[Michel H]

Still pushing the Putin BS line, I see.

No, not at all.

In these conflicts, often, you don't have black and white situations, where one side is completely wrong and evil, while the other side is completely pure and angelic.

In this case, I believe Putin should withdraw its military forces from Ukraine, while Ukraine should accept that Crimea is Russian, that both Donbass republics are independent and should promise to not join NATO for at least five years (and longer if relations with Russia improve).

Even though I know it's very hard in current circumstances, it seems to me Ukraine should work on improving its relations with Russia, which is an important supplier of hydrocarbons.

 

[Steve]

I Always thought It was the American GQP Line, did I miss somethiing?

Very likely, yes.

 

[I Am The Scum]

Even though I know it's very hard in current circumstances, it seems to me Ukraine should work on improving its relations with Russia

Should Ukraine stop burning the roast, as well?

 

[JoeMorgue]

I remember a time when "The illegal aggressor shouldn't get to dictate terms or profit from their aggression" was something nobody argued against (and nobody said "Nobody is arguing against that, now sit there while I argue against it").

But again yes Ukraine should promise to not burn the roast in the future so Russia will stop beating it in front of the children.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

No, not at all.

In these conflicts, often, you don't have black and white situations, where one side is completely wrong and evil, while the other side is completely pure and angelic.

In this case, I believe Putin should withdraw its military forces from Ukraine, while Ukraine should accept that Crimea is Russian, that both Donbass republics are independent and should promise to not join NATO for at least five years (and longer if relations with Russia improve).

Even though I know it's very hard in current circumstances, it seems to me Ukraine should work on improving its relations with Russia, which is an important supplier of hydrocarbons.

Just give the dictator everything he wants, then beg for his forgiveness for daring to fight back. Oh and give up your army too.
Your infatuation with fascism is worrying.

 

[JoeMorgue]

No what is worrying is that this is another thread were one person is just outright saying something, and about a dozen others are saying with the thinnest sheen of plausible deniability over it and for some reason that makes a difference.

Most of the discourse here is "Give Putin what he wants." It's not just coming from one person.

 

[dasmiller]

Even though I know it's very hard in current circumstances, it seems to me Ukraine should work on improving its relations with Russia, which is an important supplier of hydrocarbons.

So rude of those warmongering Ukrainians to interfere with the innocent Russian artillery that's peacefully shelling Ukrainian cities.

 

[llwyd]

Even though I know it's very hard in current circumstances, it seems to me Ukraine should work on improving its relations with Russia, which is an important supplier of hydrocarbons.

I think I have now seen it all Yeah, one would say pretty hard...

 

[Wildy]

So he said that "Ukraine did not start this war". But is this true? (or only half-true)

Yes. Yes it is true. Ukraine didn't start the war.

So Ukraine (with its Western allies) waged a humanitarian and economic war on Russia in 2014, after its annexation of Crimea, even though it is well known that Crimeans wanted to join Russia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum#Post-referendum_polls).

Illegally I might add. Firstly, this referendum took place after Russian troops had taken control of Crimea. Secondly, and rather interestingly, according to the Venice Commission the annexation of Crimea is a violation of both international law, Ukrainian law, and Russian law. Basically because of various laws and treaties signed between Russia and Ukraine, the exchange of land can only happen by agreement between Russia and Ukraine, not Russia and Crimea. Especially since the declaration of independence was illegal under Ukrainian and Crimean law.

In addition, after the Donetsk and Lugansk people's republics (of mostly Russian-speaking Donbass) declared independence in 2014, instead of dialogue and granting them self-governance (perhaps after a honest referendum), Kiev chose to start a military offensive against them ...

Again, those declarations of independence were illegal under Ukrainian law.


Considering your view on self-determination and declaring independence, do you consider Russia to have illegally taken control of Chechnya since they had declared independence in 1991?

 

[llwyd]

I think I have now seen it all Yeah, one would say pretty hard...

Okay, what the hell, I'll give it a go:

Even though I know it's very hard in current circumstances, it seems to me that Jews should work on improving their relations with Naxi-Germany, which is an important supplier of sauerkraut.

 

[Vixen]

No, not at all.

In these conflicts, often, you don't have black and white situations, where one side is completely wrong and evil, while the other side is completely pure and angelic.

In this case, I believe Putin should withdraw its military forces from Ukraine, while Ukraine should accept that Crimea is Russian, that both Donbass republics are independent and should promise to not join NATO for at least five years (and longer if relations with Russia improve).

Even though I know it's very hard in current circumstances, it seems to me Ukraine should work on improving its relations with Russia, which is an important supplier of hydrocarbons.

Russia only got away with Crimea because the West fell for its claim that the Ukrainian fighters were neo-nazis. There were some gestures towards 'sanctions' as you mention but now western leaders are saying they wish they had taken firmer action against Russia in 2014. As for playing the 'Russian minority' and 'nazi' card, Russia beat the Germans to anti-Semitism a couple of centuries earlier by expelling Jews from the St Petersburg region and thus setting up the notorious fenced off shtetl ghettos, in the first place, in the shape of the overfed Catherine the Great.

Quite frankly if you lived next door to the monster that was Russia/Soviet Union you would want to be a resistance fighter, too.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Russia only got away with Crimea because the West fell for its claim that the Ukrainian fighters were neo-nazis.

A sizeable chunk is

 

[Arcade22]

In addition, after the Donetsk and Lugansk people's republics (of mostly Russian-speaking Donbass) declared independence in 2014, instead of dialogue and granting them self-governance (perhaps after a honest referendum), Kiev chose to start a military offensive against them ...

How strange that you forgot to mention that Russian soldiers first invaded Ukraine and then installed Russian puppet leaders who subsequently "declared independence". A small insignificant detail to some i guess.