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Merged Is ufology a pseudoscience?

When your objective goal is the honest pursuit of the objective truth, basing your conclusion solely on unverified claims (like anecdotal evidence) is unthinkable.

Critical thinking means using our firmly established, common knowledge of how the Universe works—knowledge which has been determined and verified through the methodology of science—to make objective value judgments. A major component of critical thinking is not to take unverified claims at face value, but to look for substantial, verifiable evidence to back them up.

In other words, when examining a claim (especially one that challenges what science has proven to be true), we must be critical of that claim. We must put that claim to the test against the standard of objective evidence. That's what critical thinking means.


Critical thinking has already been explained at the start of this thread and it is not the same as the scientific method. Scientific evidence isn't the only evidence that can be used, so we aren't limited only to that data here, or to reaching any conclusions. See the following for more information.

http://www.criticalthinking.org/aboutCT/define_critical_thinking.cfm

If you want to discuss data that is only empirical and scientific, try the "Research and Evidence" thread. They attempt to use it there. You are also welcome to introduce what science you may have to offer on the topic. No scientific data will be rejected here.

j.r.
 
That's a rather broad definition. In fact, I counted no less than four different definitions on that single page.

I'm thinking this page might be more useful: http://www.criticalthinking.org/CTmodel/CTModel1.cfm

Pay special attention to the sections on "Information" and "Assumptions."

Critical thinking means examining things critically, hence the name. Taking anecdotes at face value without any corroborating evidence is not thinking critically.
 
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It's not malfunctions of their senses, it's not even their cognitive biases, that turn otherwise rational people into believers. It's their wilful refusal to consider the possibility that their interpretation of whatever it was they saw might be mistaken.

How do you know it's willful?
 
That's a rather broad definition. In fact, I counted no less than four different definitions on that single page.

I'm thinking this page might be more useful: http://www.criticalthinking.org/CTmodel/CTModel1.cfm

Pay special attention to the sections on "Information" and "Assumptions."

Critical thinking means examining things critically, hence the name. Taking anecdotes at face value without any corroborating evidence is not thinking critically.

Any comments, "ufology"?
 
UFO = Unidentified Flying Object

I have no problem with people seeing things in the sky that they can't identify. I do have a problem when they try to tell me that what they saw was an alien spacecraft. There is no rational reason to believe such a thing. That's not critical thinking, it's credulous thinking.

A former RCAF pilot told me about an incident he had after he had retired and began selling real estate. He was with his aide in a new residential suburb preparing to show a home. The home was on the edge of town and across the street was farmland. He and his aide pulled up to the house and as they were getting their stuff out of the car they noticed a circular metallic craft about 35 or 40 feet wide and 15 or so feet tall, about 50 yards out in the field. Three short beings he described as child like were milling around in the grass. Curious about this sight they ( the two of them ) stood and watched for several minutes as the beings gathered up samples, went into the craft, and took off, straight up, instantaneously at high speed, without any sound.
Thinking about this critically, I get a very strong impression that somebody is lying. I hope it's not you.
 
To say that people's vision suddenly malfunctions in every time a UFO is spotted is not reasonable.

it is not the eyes that malfunction. It is the individuals interpretation of what they saw is what the problem is. How many bright fireballs or re-entering space debris have you seen reported by witnesses as spaceships or triangular UFOs? I can list quite a few. How many times is Venus described as a spaceship/UFO? Vallee' called it the queen of UFOs for a reason. Understanding UFOs starts first with understanding the mind of those reporting them and second with the various stimuli that can cause such misperceptions.
 
...Critical thinking means examining things critically, hence the name. Taking anecdotes at face value without any corroborating evidence is not thinking critically.
Nor is it critical thinking to take the a priori position that UFO = advanced, intelligent, or intelligently controlled, highly motile entities or craft of non-human, extraterrestrial origin.

As he does on his website.
 
When it comes to the scientific method and UFOs, it's just not well suited to exploring the mystery because of the lack of empirical evidence and repeatability. We're stuck with having to do the best we can what other tools we have at our disposal. Critical thinking fits that bill and is part of the JREF mandate.

For critical thinking to be useful, it has to be applied from the very beginning. If you start with a faulty premise, and say "NOW we can start thinking critically with the assumption that this premise is true", you aren't going to get anywhere. You may as well think critically about how many angels dance on the head of a pin.
 
I've heard that same argument made that multiple bits of weak data cannot add up to better data. It seems to me that we can quite literally demonstrate that it does. All you have to do is go back to using your 14.4. modem to download a picture. You can literally watch how bits of data are gathered and put together to form a meaningful image.


Yes, but those bits are not WEAK data. Great trouble is taken to ensure that they are transmitted accurately. If an error is found, the software doesn't say, "Oh, well. We can still fit it in there." Instead, it asks for the verifiably accurate data.
 
Good point, but consider that they didn't see the craft land. It was already there, and the beings were humanoid. It may have looked like some kind of new fangled playground or structure. A lot of hayfields have circular silvery buildings on them. A few minutes can go by pretty fast and it wasn't until the thing took off straight up that they really knew it wasn't anything from "around here".
It matters not if they saw it land or not. If they didn't panic but stayed there observing, it still doesn't ring true to me.
I have never seen anything I couldn't explain. I truly think this is because when I've been confused about a dark shape on the moors at night, or an object hovering over the hills, I've actually gone to investigate it, instead of standing there looking at it from a distance.
I can understand people being scared and I can understand people wanting a closer look. What I don't understand is people who are apparently not scared but willing to keep their distance instead of actually finding out what something they don't recognise is. It happens an awful lot in UFO stories. Your friend wasn't called Lonnie Zamora was he? :D

Seriously though, if you were utilising critical thinking, you would have at least asked for contact details of the person he was with to get some sort of verification?

From what you've told us about this so far, you listened to his story and then that was the end of the investigation.

When I had my own sighting, none of us jumped up and panicked. We just kind of looked at each other with a "did you see that" expression and nodded. We didn't even know what to say at first. Finally my girlfriend actually said "did you see that", and we started to talk about it. People don't always act like you would expect them to when they see these things.
It stands to reason that when people see things they perceive as something unexpected, they will react in 'unexpected ways'.
However, the people in UFO stories always seem to act in the same 'unexpected ways' (so we can expect certain behaviours from UFO witnesses) and that doesn't correlate with people who see unexpected things which are not UFOs. Now as unexpected things are unexpected things regardelss of what they are, we would expect people to react within a certain set of parameters. Why do UFO witnesses (and witnesses of other claimed paranormal events) react outside of the normal parameters of what would be expected?
 
At this point I should clarify my position on what constitutes "anecdotal evidence". When I refer to anecdotal evidence, I don't mean the typical casual offhanded comment that might be overheard in a bar. I don't even mean the kind that is considered to fall under generally assumed definitions of unreliability. I'm talking more about first hand accounts from reputable and reliable witnesses, and other accounts similar in nature to case reports. By case reports I mean those used in medicine based on anecdotal evidence ...

Such first-hand accounts would be valid in a courtroom, where we are trying to determine whether someone is innocent or guilty of a crime. Two differences, however:

1. We KNOW that crime exists, so it's not such a big leap to assume that SOMEONE committed the crime, and
2. The standard of evidence for science is higher than that of criminal court.


ETA: With medical case reports, we have accounts from people who are trained to make clinical observations and report on them accurately. They are likely to have a strong background that enables them to put their observations into the proper context.

Compare this to observers of UFO's, who, for instance, will claim that they can tell how big something is even though they have no idea what it is or how far away it is.
 
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To say that people's vision suddenly malfunctions in every time a UFO is spotted is not reasonable.
I know other people have already responded to this but I think I have something to add too.

What is certain in 100% of (genuine) UFO reports is that people saw something they couldn't identify.
However, we can't extrapolate from that that 100% of the time, people can't identify stuff they see.

In fact billions of flying objects are seen every day by people all over the world that can be identified, so it becomes a very small statistic that sometimes people see stuff they can't identify, look at it that way it's not too unreasonable to assume that under the usually unique conditions of light, distance, weather conditions, angle in any given UFO report, that someone's vision of the object in question may have been distorted.

Now the critical thinking part: Of course, it doesn't rule out that they saw a alien space craft, but it is certainly much more likely that the viewing conditions lead to a misperception of some sort (we have solid proof of optical illusions, misperceptions, etc). So in order to conclude that they more than likely saw an alien space craft, you have to show how there is little or no possible chance that viewing conditions or misperceptions of any kind could account for what they saw.
 
Did I mention that there is no established body of anecdotal evidence for Superman?

So you're requiring extraordinary evidnece for Superman? Good, you're starting to think critically. As Sagan so rightly said, Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

There is much anecdotal evidence for Santa Claus. More for Santa Claus than for UFOs as pseudoalien space vehicles. Does your weight of evidence cause you to believe the jolly old elf lives at the North Pole? If not, why not?
 
Critical thinking has already been explained at the start of this thread and it is not the same as the scientific method.

The scientific method is based on thinking critically.

In this context, it is my opinion that it is to evaluate and judge what is presented carefully and to question sources that are less than reliable. Anecdotal evidence, is probably the one source of evidence that has to be judged most critically because it is not as reliable as other sources of evidence.
 
Indeed, and I would add that denying investigation into human experience on the grounds that the only evidence we have is anecdotal (although in what context that would actually apply is hard to imagine – perhaps “ghosts”, maybe Bigfoot, certainly not in the context of UFOs - for there we have radar, film and photographic and physical trace evidence alongside the multiple eyewitness testimony) and also on the basis of – “(according to what I think I know) It cannot be, therefore it isn’t” actually does a grave disservice to the advancement of knowledge, removing potential advancements from consideration.

You always forget FLIR. LOL!

Actually, you've nearly gotten it except you have it wrong. The basis is "according to what I absolutely know, I can't imagine what it is, therefore pseudoaliens."

Indeed, the factors that cause misinterpretations are well documented and are the product of the way our normal perception (in terms of both the physical structure of the eye and the brain and the psychological heuristics and biases used to process the information) operates.
All well and good. It's when a pseudoscientist overestimates their ability to read someone's motivation. "They seem to be credible" is a common form used. Do you see why that is merely applying a personal bias to arrive at a foregone conclusion?

Indeed, “sudden” movements from aircraft are impossible. No matter how close or far away, that fact remains. A person who applies critical thinking would not however leap to the “ET” conclusion merely on that basis. Most people are very reluctant to do that. Most people go through a process of elimination (Is it a bird, a plane, etc) and even if they reach a point where they cannot determine what the object is, they still show a reluctance to conclude “ET”. People know that it is probably still something they have not thought of. They are not stupid.
But you would agree that it is impossible for anyone to eliminate all mundane explanations, yes? The question then becomes, why do they leap to the pseudoalien hypothesis at all?

Well …except of that “sudden” movement thing… but for “ET” you may be right even so…
Why is it impossible for terrestrial craft to make sudden movements? I hear this kind of fanciful thinking also. Where does it originate?

Umm …”sudden” movements are still impossible for aircraft…
Then the explanation is that it isn't a craft. A rationally minded person would realize that it is a bug much smaller and closer than their pre-conceived pseudoalien idea that they initially wanted to jump to.

Ah …now a firefly is perhaps at a stretch a possibility… some wind blown debri that has caught the light may be better …a lighted kite or balloon of some sort flown up by some local teenagers and caught in gusts of wind even more plausible …all possibilities before ET…
Exactly! You're starting to think critically again! Well done!

I don’t think that “wilful refusal” is the correct term there. Perhaps it is simply that they don’t know how to apply critical thinking skills to the problem. I see the very same problem (that you outline for the object perception above) being displayed in your “motivation of others” perception – that of not being able to fully and critically consider alternatives. I think this is what this thread is all about. Being able to apply those critical thinking skills no matter what the subject of discussion is.
Yes, we certainly see an inability to apply critical thinking skills a lot.
 
Hey Tom ... Thanks for weighing in on the crackpot hypothesis.

OK we've conceeded that anecdotal evidence doesn't "prove" anything. For that matter even if we had a video of you being rescued by Superman, that wouldn't "prove" anything either. And even if we could watch with our own eyes while you showed us how Superman rescues you, that still wouldn't "prove" anything. I saw David Copperfield make a Lear Jet vanish. Do I think he has genuine magical powers ... we'll damn he's good enough to make me wonder.

Essentially you're just playing the "crackpot card". We don't need to prove there are crackpots out there who make up stories just for the fun of it. We know there are. But we're not dealing with just a few people, and it isn't reasonable to believe that they are all crackpots. The evidence weighs very heavily against that assertion.

j.r.

So basically your argument is the old "Well, are you saying ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE are lying? Come on... that's impossible"

You, like Rramjet, are making the numbers argument: A helluva lotta people are saying it, therefore it must be true.

Yes, most people lie. Most people are deluded. Most people are easily deceived. So no, it is not inconceivable that most people could be wrong about something. It happens all the time. An individual's perception is not more reliable than 10 million individuals'. You still can't merely rely on their perception and on their anecdotes. So once again, it's not about quantity. It's about quality.
 
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Do Ufologists apply the scientific method? Have they formulated any scientific theories or at least a hypothesis?
Certainly, for example:

If the critics are correct and that UFOs are merely misidentified mundane objects, then there should be no difference on defined characteristics (speed, shape, etc) between reports that have been identified as mundane objects and those reports that have not.

You misunderstand. The assumption that is unjustified is that the object is the size and distance of an aircraft. It could be smaller and closer (or, indeed, larger and further away). It is impossible to know, despite many UFO spotters insistence otherwise.
As I pointed out, perception can be biased in many ways, both due to the physical biology receiving and transmitting the information and the psychological heuristics and biases used to process that information. Fortunately the factors involved in all of that have been well researched and documented and we can therefore analyse UFO reports in light of those factors. The inability to accurately determine size on a flat background (sans depth cues such as found with a clear blue sky or a black night sky) is one of those well documented factors.

And movements that appear sudden may look much less so seen from a different angle, e.g. what looks like a 90 degree turn from a particular line of sight may actually be much shallower. Again, the mistake is assuming that there's only one possible interpretation of what you're seeing.
You originally described a series of “sudden” movements in “different directions”. A turning aircraft, no matter how close or from whatever viewing angle necessarily executes timed and curved manoeuvres. If one was investigating your sighting, one of the principle questions one would be compelled to ask would be designed to determine what you meant by “sudden”. If you meant (for example) abrupt, right angled turns, then that would rule out aircraft.

When I say 'wilful' I'm referring to the sort of people who come to this site to share their anecdotal experiences (not just about UFOs) and, despite patient explanations about cognitive biases, the unreliability of their perceptions and the application of critical thinking, simply refuse to consider any other interpretation except the one they arrived with.
Just as you have done in not accepting an alternate interpretation such as a lack of knowledge in the application of critical thinking – as opposed to your “wilful refusal” to consider alternates …perchance?

I would suggest that many upstanding citizens regularly see and hear JC. Presidents, presidential candidates, high ranking military officials, teachers, etc. have all heard from or seen Jesus Christ.
I would be very interested to see the statistics you are relying on as a foundation for that contention wardenclyffe. After all, I assume such a contention is not merely a faith based belief, but is actually founded on sound evidence?

... makes the story completely unbelievable. No-one would simply have stood and calmly watched such a sight.
That is merely your opinion. Clearly you have never experienced such things. When you do, it is often practically impossible to either move or do anything except stare in awestruck, somewhat fearful wonderment. There is also no mention of “calmly” in the passage you quoted – that characterisation would then seem to be a mere unfounded assumption on your behalf.

Some people have a very dry sense of humour, and are capable of telling tall tales to someone they've heard has a particular interest with a completely straight face. Without further information or evidence I see no reason to look further for an explanation.
So then any investigation would set out to determine if your hypothesis was true. An investigator would interview friends and colleagues, they would look at past behaviours and any biographical information that may shed light on the type of character.

This is what critical thinking means. It does not mean you come up with a hypothesis (such as you have done) and on the basis of the mere formulation of that hypothesis, dismiss the claim or refuse to investigate the evidence that might support or falsify that hypothesis.

Those weren't anecdotes. They were measured observations, applied to mathematical formulas that proved their hypothesis that the planets moved around the Sun in elliptical orbits.
The data gathering was going on for many, many years before anyone got around to using it to deduce a heliocentric model. The data were mere plots of lights moving across the night sky. Besides, the data gatherer was not even the person who made the deductions…

Critical thinking means using our firmly established, common knowledge of how the Universe works—knowledge which has been determined and verified through the methodology of science—to make objective value judgments.
Critical thinking also means being able to analytically question “established knowledge”…

Critical thinking is the intellectually disciplined process of actively and skillfully conceptualizing, applying, analyzing, synthesizing, and/or evaluating information gathered from, or generated by, observation, experience, reflection, reasoning, or communication, as a guide to belief and action. In its exemplary form, it is based on universal intellectual values that transcend subject matter divisions: clarity, accuracy, precision, consistency, relevance, sound evidence, good reasons, depth, breadth, and fairness.” (http://www.criticalthinking.org/aboutCT/define_critical_thinking.cfm)​

A major component of critical thinking is not to take unverified claims at face value, but to look for substantial, verifiable evidence to back them up.
You are generally correct in that critical thinking requires that we examine all claims for supporting evidence without fear or favour. A danger to the successful application of critical thinking is to fall into the trap of accepting “received wisdom” and considering some claims as having been verified merely because they are authoritatively proclaimed.

In other words, when examining a claim (especially one that challenges what science has proven to be true), we must be critical of that claim. We must put that claim to the test against the standard of objective evidence. That's what critical thinking means
We must apply critical thinking to all claims, for there are some claims we would like to challenge that do not refute our knowledge of science (for example: claims of UFOs as ET – which in no way refutes any current scientific knowledge).

You also seem to be falling once again into the trap of mistaking evidence for proof. We can have claims with supporting evidence that still fall short of having been proved.

Critical thinking means examining things critically, hence the name. Taking anecdotes at face value without any corroborating evidence is not thinking critically.
Exactly, and by the same token one cannot dismiss anecdotes without evaluating the evidence. One must think critically about them.

I do have a problem when they try to tell me that what they saw was an alien spacecraft. There is no rational reason to believe such a thing. That's not critical thinking, it's credulous thinking.
The ET hypothesis is a plausible explanatory hypothesis. This is because we have the observational evidence of ostensible “nuts and bolts” craft, intelligent control and associated beings (not to mention the supporting radar, photographic and film and physical trace evidence). This is the type of evidence that sets UFOlogy apart from other paranormal fields – so I would suggest your characterisation of “credulous” is a little misguided.

it is not the eyes that malfunction. It is the individuals interpretation of what they saw is what the problem is. How many bright fireballs or re-entering space debris have you seen reported by witnesses as spaceships or triangular UFOs? I can list quite a few. How many times is Venus described as a spaceship/UFO? Vallee' called it the queen of UFOs for a reason.
This is straight back to the “eyewitnesses can be mistaken, therefore they are mistaken” fallacy. Just because something is possible does not mean that in a particular circumstance it is probable or even likely.

Understanding UFOs starts first with understanding the mind of those reporting them and second with the various stimuli that can cause such misperceptions.
Now you are back on the right track…

Nor is it critical thinking to take the a priori position that UFO = advanced, intelligent, or intelligently controlled, highly motile entities or craft of non-human, extraterrestrial origin.
The ET hypothesis is a plausible explanatory hypothesis. This is because we have the observational evidence of ostensible “nuts and bolts” craft, intelligent control and associated beings (not to mention the supporting radar, photographic and film and physical trace evidence). This is the type of evidence that sets UFOology apart from other paranormal fields.

Yes, but those bits are not WEAK data. Great trouble is taken to ensure that they are transmitted accurately. If an error is found, the software doesn't say, "Oh, well. We can still fit it in there." Instead, it asks for the verifiably accurate data.
“Weight of Evidence (WOE) … is something widely used both by scientists in evaluating data and in setting regulations and guidelines in the public policy sphere, and is widely understood but is hard to define. Why? Because it calls upon all of one's expertise, training and experience and it addresses all types of issues concerning data big and small. A definition would probably require pages. It is this very imprecision that causes problems in the courtroom: something that is not clearly defined can be defined any way one likes. And so the court tends to avoid weight of evidence testimony and opinions even though they underpin scientific practice.”

(…)

“The argument has been made that weight of five pieces of weak data cannot be turned into a whole of strong data. That mistates the practice and point. 'Weight of Evidence' is somewhat of a misnomer; more accurately it's the fit of evidence that is key rather than its weight. It is how pieces of evidence fit together, complement one another, create a picture larger than themselves that is the determinant, rather than the weight.”
”(http://www.toxicologysource.com/law/daubert/judgingthejudges/weightofevidence.html)​

Anecdotal evidence, is probably the one source of evidence that has to be judged most critically because it is not as reliable as other sources of evidence.
Now you are getting it.

You, like Rramjet, are making the numbers argument: A helluva lotta people are saying it, therefore it must be true.
You are simply confusing the Argumentum ad populum fallacy with the concept of a weight of evidence.

The ET hypothesis is a plausible explanatory hypothesis. This is because we have the observational evidence of ostensible “nuts and bolts” craft, intelligent control and associated beings (not to mention the supporting radar, photographic and film and physical trace evidence). This is the type of evidence that sets UFOlogy apart from other paranormal fields.

…it's not about quantity. It's about quality.
Now you are getting it.
 
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