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Is this racist?

Something to consider...

While it's true that I'm not an American, I don't think that alone explains my obliviousness to the alleged racial slur inherent in calling someone a "pimp". I can't speak for any other country, but we at least are utterly inundated with American culture. It's probably hard for an American to appreciate just how pervasive your culture is in our media. I've been exposed to my fair share of "pimp" references in American culture, and yet I still don't see the racial connection.

So perhaps it really is a generational thing. Maybe it really doesn't mean anything racist any more even in US culture, so that only older people, who recall a time when it was racist, see any racism in it.

For me, when I hear someone being called a pimp, I think one of two things:
1) That they're dressed very flashily. This could be a negative thing or a positive thing.
2) They're an immoral scumbag who exploits the weak and unfortunate for their own gratification.

I can easily see how the second of those would apply to a politician, regardless of race.
 
Nursedan said:
I think what he said was slightly racist. That's diffrent than me calling him "a racist". I was trying to get him to examine the language in his post.
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How can someone possibly say something that is racist, if they aren't racist themselves? That makes no sense whatsoever.
 
psionl0 said:
There is no question that there are still many full blown racists who deliberately choose their words to denigrate other races and make clear that that is what they are doing.

There is also no shortage of racists that make more subtle remarks that are nevertheless intended to offend other races.

However, classifying every single statement as "racist" or "not racist" even when no reference to race is apparent is absurd. Not only does it render the term meaningless, it stifles free speech as it makes people fear that a remark of theirs might be interpreted as racist. It is a tool of political correctness.
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That would be an excellent point.... If I was classifying every single statement. You'll be kind enough to point out to me where I said that, I'm sure.

I'm classifying "smooth talker wearing a pimp hat" as racist.
 
gumboot said:
How can someone possibly say something that is racist, if they aren't racist themselves? That makes no sense whatsoever.
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Because no matter how hard we try, many of us have some racism in us. I've been caught out in using or believing stereotypes, myself and I'm a person who's dedicated most of my life to standing up for equality and fairness.
 
gumboot said:
How can someone possibly say something that is racist, if they aren't racist themselves? That makes no sense whatsoever.
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Perpetuating a stereotype is different than being a racist. I think my friend posted without really thinking about what he was saying, but I don't think he is a racist who has a genuine bias. I also know that this FB friend has opther friends who are black and asian. Haven't you ever said something that could be construed as racist? Are you a racist?

I can say that exercise can make you healthy, but that doesn't make me a personal trainer. I can take care of my lawn, but I'm not a gardener. Etc. etc.
 
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gumboot said:
How can someone possibly say something that is racist, if they aren't racist themselves? That makes no sense whatsoever.
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Let's look at the definition of racism ...

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.​


IMO, there's no proof within the statement "just another smooth talker wearing pimp hats..." of any of the above descriptions of racism. What we do have is someone indulging in a stereotype, largely associated with a race, in a reckless attempt to get attention in a medium rife with people desperately seeking it.

The OP did not respond by calling the person racist. He said the statement was slightly racist. It seems to me that the OP described it perfectly.

Making that statement does not make the person racist, any more than me saying, "E=MC2" makes me a physicist.
 
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UnrepentantSinner said:
I'm unaware of it being considered such. Do you have an example of it being considered such?

(There's black and Hispanic cowboys if that's what you're getting at and in my part of Texas, I see more Hispanics wearing cowboy hats than whites.)
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Well, it's an interesting distinction, isn't it? Over on the Ohio Uni/Halloween costume poster thread, one school of thought has it that someone dressing up in a sombrero and a poncho is "racist," but if that's the case, then surely someone dressing up as stereotypical cowboy is also being racist? Would it be "racist" for someone to dress up as either at a British fancy dress party? What if the person there going for the sombrero/poncho was actually Spanish?
 
gumboot said:
Once upon a time, this was almost undoubtedly racist. If you suggested that to any New Zealander today (or at least any young NZer) I suspect they'd laugh at you. Everyone does it. Whites, Polynesians, Asians, Indians. You name the racial/ethnic group, and they'll talk like that. Amongst themselves and between groups. It's not racist, it's just part of our culture now. (bizarrely, this way of talking also often includes deliberate "european" mispronunciations of maori ("maaareee") words, suggesting it's actually the amalgamation of two separate racist stereotypes into a single collective speech pattern).
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Sounds similar to the emergence of Multicultural London English. The early derogatory nickname for it of "Jafaican" carried an implicit suggestion that it was white kids trying to sound Jamaican/West Indian, but the reality is simply that they were unconsciously picking up certain speech patterns and dialect words. Innit?
 
Information Analyst said:
Well, it's an interesting distinction, isn't it? Over on the Ohio Uni/Halloween costume poster thread, one school of thought has it that someone dressing up in a sombrero and a poncho is "racist," but if that's the case, then surely someone dressing up as stereotypical cowboy is also being racist? Would it be "racist" for someone to dress up as either at a British fancy dress party? What if the person there going for the sombrero/poncho was actually Spanish?
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While a bit of a derail, I think this is legitimate thread drift, so apologies to anyone who feels this belongs in that Racist Costumes thread.

US had just mentioned that there are different ethnic groups who wear cowboy hats - he didn't mention "white" but you had in the post he was responding to. So, seeing as to how there are several "races" wearing cowboy hats (and he left out a large group - native Americans), dressing as a cowboy in and of itself would not be racist. Many American kids (and kids all over the world) fantasized about being cowboys.

If you could point out the cultural stigma that people think cowboys are shiftless or lazy or criminal or rule the world? Maybe you have a point. There is no such theme in America, though. They aren't representative of any stereotyped minority that I know of.

Mexican peasant on a burro wearing a sombrero. Stereotype. Racist.

What does a British person dress like? It could be racist in China or India or Africa. But a frat kid in Ohio? I'm hard pressed to find it so. (I'm even harder pressed to ask what one would dress up as to be recognizably British - unless it's a RedCoat.)

I think the litmus test is as I mentioned above. My Lennox Avenue test. If you have a funny costume that involves a group of persons and their culture or nationality, try it out on the subject. Dress up as a slutty Geisha and go to the Women's Aikido Club social. Go in blackface to a Hip Hop club in Detroit. Get your sombrero and burro outfit and stroll through East L.A. And back to this particular thread, get on a soap box at 145th and Lennox and try to convince the local that "smooth talker in a pimp hat" is just an expression and has nothing to do with blackness.
 
Information Analyst said:
Sounds similar to the emergence of Multicultural London English. The early derogatory nickname for it of "Jafaican" carried an implicit suggestion that it was white kids trying to sound Jamaican/West Indian, but the reality is simply that they were unconsciously picking up certain speech patterns and dialect words. Innit?
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This is a different phenomena and I don't find the carry over of traits to be racist in the least. I hang out at the local discos and when the US Navy is in town it becomes quite apparent that an entire segment of American kids have grown up around Hip Hop. It's hard to differentiate the speech patterns and dress styles amongst black, white and Latino. There is a huge crossover, likely more class related than race related.
 
Foolmewunz said:
While a bit of a derail, I think this is legitimate thread drift, so apologies to anyone who feels this belongs in that Racist Costumes thread.

US had just mentioned that there are different ethnic groups who wear cowboy hats - he didn't mention "white" but you had in the post he was responding to. So, seeing as to how there are several "races" wearing cowboy hats (and he left out a large group - native Americans), dressing as a cowboy in and of itself would not be racist. Many American kids (and kids all over the world) fantasized about being cowboys.

If you could point out the cultural stigma that people think cowboys are shiftless or lazy or criminal or rule the world?
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Plenty of criminals in cowboy films, dressed as cowboys, even though they're techinically not.
Maybe you have a point. There is no such theme in America, though. They aren't representative of any stereotyped minority that I know of.

Mexican peasant on a burro wearing a sombrero. Stereotype. Racist.
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But what makes a Mexican peasant wearing a sombrero (let's forget about the donkey - a fancy dress cowboy outfit could equally incorporate a horse) racist, but not an American cowboy in a stetson? Both types of headgear, after all, continue to be worn in their respective countries, for both utilitarian and culture reasons. Would any non-Mexican wearing traditional Mexican clothes be automatically deemed "racist" in a way any non-American dressing as a cowboy would not. It seems to me that the inherent problem is that some people are effectively saying that any recognisable depiction of certain nationalities by people of other nationalities/ethnicities is inherently "racist."

What does a British person dress like? It could be racist in China or India or Africa. But a frat kid in Ohio? I'm hard pressed to find it so. (I'm even harder pressed to ask what one would dress up as to be recognizably British - unless it's a RedCoat.)
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I think most Brits wouldn't have a hard time recognising a Redcoat as a British stereotype. A "Beefeater", Morris Dancer, John Steed, or James Bond almost certainly would be, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who would think any of them were "racist," no matter what nationality or ethnicity the impersonator was. Heck, Austin Powers might be a totally skewed "representation," but far more Britis find him hilarious than offensive.
I think the litmus test is as I mentioned above. My Lennox Avenue test. If you have a funny costume that involves a group of persons and their culture or nationality, try it out on the subject. Dress up as a slutty Geisha and go to the Women's Aikido Club social. Go in blackface to a Hip Hop club in Detroit. Get your sombrero and burro outfit and stroll through East L.A. And back to this particular thread, get on a soap box at 145th and Lennox and try to convince the local that "smooth talker in a pimp hat" is just an expression and has nothing to do with blackness.
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So what it seems to boil down to is that some nationalities or ethnicities are effectively off-limits to parody or interpretation, because just about any visible clues that might be associated with them will identify them, so such clues are automatically deemed "racist." Bit of a circular argument, really....
 
Information Analyst said:
Plenty of criminals in cowboy films, dressed as cowboys, even though they're techinically not.


But what makes a Mexican peasant wearing a sombrero (let's forget about the donkey - a fancy dress cowboy outfit could equally incorporate a horse) racist, but not an American cowboy in a stetson? Both types of headgear, after all, continue to be worn in their respective countries, for both utilitarian and culture reasons. Would any non-Mexican wearing traditional Mexican clothes be automatically deemed "racist" in a way any non-American dressing as a cowboy would not. It seems to me that the inherent problem is that some people are effectively saying that any recognisable depiction of certain nationalities by people of other nationalities/ethnicities is inherently "racist."
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There is no single race (the root of "racism") of cowboys. There is no American race. If you can come up with a "dumb American" costume, I might consider your example, but a cowboy is a romantic image. People like to play cowboy. Kids all over the world grew up pretending to be John Wayne or Clint Eastwood. My Asian kid and his Asian schoolmates pretend, at the age of three, to be galloping on their horses and shooting off their fingers(pistols in Marcello World).

I don't know about growing up in London, but when we played cowboys or soldiers or war when I was a kid in my neighborhood in New Orleans, I can't recall anyone saying, "Oooh, I want to be the Mexican in the sombrero sitting against the wall taking a siesta." It is not a romantic image. It is not a flattering image. It is not even an accurate image. It was a Hollywood stereotype. It is limited to a particular people in a particular place. Add all that together and you get "racist".


I think most Brits wouldn't have a hard time recognising a Redcoat as a British stereotype. A "Beefeater", Morris Dancer, John Steed, or James Bond almost certainly would be, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who would think any of them were "racist," no matter what nationality or ethnicity the impersonator was. Heck, Austin Powers might be a totally skewed "representation," but far more Britis find him hilarious than offensive.
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Is a single one of those characters considered derogatory? If I came up to you at Harrod's and said, "You... you... Beefeater, you!" would we be calling our seconds and dueling at dawn. Those are historical characters or uniforms (even if fictitious).

If someone came to a costume party as Speedy Gonzalez, I'd say, "Cute costume". If someone came to a costume party as Dennis Rodman or Desmond Tutu? Ditto and ditto. But if that same someone(s) came as "a" Mexican in the outfit under discussion, or "a" black guy all blinged out, or "a" sub-saharan African in tribal dress, then it's going to depend on one salient factor: Is said person Mexican or American Black or Black, respectively for the three costumes. If so, it could quite likely be a good parody - e.g. "This is what you think we are like, so I'm going to push it right up your nose." Anyone else in those costumes? Quite likely racist. "Hey hey, let's make fun of some minorities. It's a party. Don't be so sensitive, beaners!"

So what it seems to boil down to is that some nationalities or ethnicities are effectively off-limits to parody or interpretation, because just about any visible clues that might be associated with them will identify them, so such clues are automatically deemed "racist." Bit of a circular argument, really....
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No. I've given specific responses to your inappropriate analogies and I've shown where certain things are and are not racist. You keep muddying the waters with inapplicable analogies. "Cowboy!" is not an insult. Nor is "Beefeater!" Nor, for the past century, "Redcoat!"

You are trying to broaden the criteria but are not achieving the desired results. (I think you got off on the wrong foot with the cowboy analogy, frankly. That just falls aparat far too easily.)
 
Foolmewunz said:
This is a different phenomena and I don't find the carry over of traits to be racist in the least. I hang out at the local discos and when the US Navy is in town it becomes quite apparent that an entire segment of American kids have grown up around Hip Hop. It's hard to differentiate the speech patterns and dress styles amongst black, white and Latino. There is a huge crossover, likely more class related than race related.
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I think your right, the kids these days just want to get along and give everyone a chance, racism is just an old thing that has been dragged along so the few that need to use it can, you want to be equal or part of the currant social status, i say just Blend . . .
 
RedRatSnake said:
I think your right, the kids these days just want to get along and give everyone a chance, racism is just an old thing that has been dragged along so the few that need to use it can, you want to be equal or part of the currant social status, i say just Blend . . .
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Ironically, in an earlier generation I was accused by both black and white friends of trying to emulate black street talk and lifestyles. I was just an earlier version of this. I attended a nearly all black high school in New York and rather than hanging out in the white kids' ghetto (two tables in the cafeteria), I mixed and I just picked up some musical tastes and expressions. Stuff that you latch onto at 15 or 16 stays with you for a while, so five years later in a totally different milieu friends thought I was some sort of poseur, not realizing it was just part of my upbringing.
 
citizenzen said:
Can I borrow your glasses?

I want to see what the world looks like in pretty pink.
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Anyone that wants to be part of the working society needs only to find a job and work it, take the time to better ones skills and climb the ladder like everyone else, ( wall street excluded ) get along with those around you best you can and don't piss and moan if someone else is better than you, if it bothers ya then step up to the plate and kick some ass by learning how to be better and excel.
 
RedRatSnake said:
Anyone that wants to be part of the working society needs only to find a job and work it, take the time to better ones skills and climb the ladder like everyone else, ( wall street excluded ) get along with those around you best you can and don't piss and moan if someone else is better than you, if it bothers ya then step up to the plate and kick some ass by learning how to be better and excel.
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That's too hard.

Can't we just have a law that makes me equal?
 
Howie Felterbush said:
That's too hard.

Can't we just have a law that makes me equal?
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We already do ! it's called your civil rights and you can cash them in at any local welfare location, all ya need is too prove your different from all the rest of us and all the regular working class citizens will give you a check just for sitting on your ass all day, cool huh :)
 
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