Is there a legitimate reason to question the official narrative*?

Is there a legitimate reason to question the official narrative?


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The answer to the question, "is there ligitimate reason to question the official narrative?" is yes.

The problem, as everyone here is eager to demonstrate, is that there is no testable theory under the "Official" rubric. No testable theory = no explanation.

You haven't defined what is acceptable to YOU. There has been a theory acceptable to everybody else.

If you can't test for it, you're not doing science.

You don't need science to know what happened. All you need is observation and common sense.


If you do not have a scientific explanation of what caused the towers to collapse, what are you relying on? On the word of an authority? Is that what you rely on to make good decisions? God help you.

Observation and common sense. You may not have seen what happened that day as it was happening, but plenty of people did. I doubt many people thought the first tower was going to fall. But after it did, I doubt many people thought the 2nd one was going to survive. Why? Because they fell prey to the same stresses, so why would you expect a different result?

In the case of WTC 7, I think the first person to warn of collapse did so about 5 hours before it did.

In the case of the Pentagon and Shan.... oh yea. We don't talk about those.

Sorry. :rolleyes:

Regardless of what you think about 9/11, those who defend the NIST report are definitely not "skeptics".

A skeptic would doubt the conclusions of a report for which there was no testable theory.

"Don't have such an open mind that your brains fall out"
-someone
 
Does anyone have a real argument defending the OCT? Anyone?

Is this how it's going to be? I call you all out for defending a non-scientific stance, a few posters throw some circumstantial ad hominems, and then crickets?

It's not like I'm some master logician, it's that you cannot defend something that doesn't exist. But that won't stop anyone from trying to change the subject.

Did you notice how many times posters tried to change the subject and ask what my theory was on the collapses? That's what happens when you cannot defend your position. Hide. Distract. Change the subject. Demean. Maintain confident manner. All of it, so predictable. But yet, still not a single defender can point to a testable theory.

Anytime anyone wants to point one out, be my guest.

I really don't think you need the obvious pointed out to you. there is no hope for some people and 911 conspiracy forums is the place (to be laughed at) to be seen to be supposedly doing something for the cause. Good luck maybe you too can make a career out of it.
 
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You haven't defined what is acceptable to YOU. There has been a theory acceptable to everybody else.

There is no testable theory in the NIST report. That's my "legitimate reason to question the official narrative."

The real question at this point is "Do you have a legitimate reason to defend the official narrative?"

You don't need science to know what happened. All you need is observation and common sense.

So if I say "Look at the videos! The towers are clearly imploding. Observation and common sense." you would accept that? Hardly.

I've interrupted your finger painting enough for today.
 
I really don't think you need the obvious pointed out to you. there is no hope for some people and 911 conspiracy forums is the place (to be laughed at) to be seen to be supposedly doing something for the cause. Good luck maybe you too can make a career out of it.

So you admit, you have no testable theory. Ok. Now what? It's clear you're not appealing to a scientific position. That means you're a salesman. I'm not buying. Neither are the skeptics.

The question now is a psychological one: If you're not defending the official narrative based on science, then what? A cozy feeling? A paycheck? What exactly keeps you defending the indefensible? I mean, you can't even tell me what the testable theory is, but that doesn't seem to put a dent in your cheerleading.
 
So you admit, you have no testable theory. Ok. Now what? It's clear you're not appealing to a scientific position. That means you're a salesman. I'm not buying. Neither are the skeptics.

The question now is a psychological one: If you're not defending the official narrative based on science, then what? A cozy feeling? A paycheck? What exactly keeps you defending the indefensible? I mean, you can't even tell me what the testable theory is, but that doesn't seem to put a dent in your cheerleading.
Yes, why does 911 truth have no testable theories?
Why does 911 truth avoid science.
Why is Gage such a great salesman to those who can't think for themselves.
You are right, no skeptic buys into the silly dumbed down claims of CD from 911 truth.

It is a psychological one, why do 911 truth follower believe the fantasy of termite, silent explosives and CD; the inside job which has no identified doers.?

Is it a psychological one, why Jones dropped 911 truth/thermite, and is pushing over unity circuits.


19 terrorists did 911, a fact, no need to test it, it happened. Do not start with the pay check stuff, it only shows signs of paranoid.
 
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There is no testable theory in the NIST report. That's my "legitimate reason to question the official narrative."

The real question at this point is "Do you have a legitimate reason to defend the official narrative?"

WHAT IS a testable theory in your mind? They used a computer simulation, which is the best they could do. The fact here, is that there IS no testable theory that will placate you. It doesn't exist. Just admit it for chrissake.



So if I say "Look at the videos! The towers are clearly imploding. Observation and common sense." you would accept that? Hardly.

Of course I wouldn't accept that, because they didn't implode. They collapsed.


I've interrupted your finger painting enough for today.

Cute. You don't honestly think you have the acumen to speak to me, or anybody in that manner, do you?
 
...
I've interrupted your finger painting enough for today.
What fantasy do you have now?

lol, you look at a building collapsing and don't know why on 911 the buildings fell to the ground, to you, "looked like cd".

To me, here finger painting at the home for wayward beachys, the collapses on 911 were gravity collapses, as are CD collapses. You see, my finger painting class therapy helps me understand tiny charges are used in CD, and the buildings are destroyed when the insignificant charges realease E-mgh, which is the primary energy used in CD to destroy buildings. On 911 fire and damage to the towers released E=mgh, and the energy released, over 100 tons of TNT in each building are responsible for the damage.

CD is gravity collapse. Your lifelong thinking 911 collapses look like CD are wrong; you have the wrong paradigms. You might want to bush up on physics and research.

Where do you get those silent explosives for your legitimate reason to doubt 19 terrorists did 911? Who did 911 in your fantasy version?
 
So you admit, you have no testable theory. Ok. Now what? It's clear you're not appealing to a scientific position. That means you're a salesman. I'm not buying. Neither are the skeptics.

The question now is a psychological one: If you're not defending the official narrative based on science, then what? A cozy feeling? A paycheck? What exactly keeps you defending the indefensible? I mean, you can't even tell me what the testable theory is, but that doesn't seem to put a dent in your cheerleading.

No Jay, you are obviously a very inteligent person who has done loads of research and have all the answers. I'm not trying to preach to you. As far as I am concerned I am happy you have done your research.

I hope it becomes useful to you in future life.
 
So you admit, you have no testable theory. Ok. Now what? It's clear you're not appealing to a scientific position. That means you're a salesman. I'm not buying. Neither are the skeptics.

The question now is a psychological one: If you're not defending the official narrative based on science, then what? A cozy feeling? A paycheck? What exactly keeps you defending the indefensible? I mean, you can't even tell me what the testable theory is, but that doesn't seem to put a dent in your cheerleading.


Crikey.

Multistrawmadhominunempiricalifragilisticexpialid'oh!cious.
 
No, you are mistaken. He didn't claim "thermite did it" then find the microspheres. He first found the microspheres, then theorized thermite.

It should be easy for you to prove your assertion, then. Please show an example of Jones discussing "microspheres" before 2005.

wikipedia said:
On September 22, 2005 Jones presented his views on the collapse of the World Trade Center towers and World Trade Center 7 at a BYU seminar attended by approximately 60 people. Jones claimed that a variety of evidence defies the mainstream collapse theory and favors controlled demolition, using thermite. The evidence Jones cited included the speed and symmetry of the collapses, and characteristics of dust jets. Later, Jones claimed he had identified grey/red flakes found in the dust as nanothermite traces.


New York Times said:
September 2, 2006
In an e-mail message yesterday, Professor Jones did not explain how so much explosive could have been positioned in the two buildings without drawing attention. “Others are researching the maintenance activity in the buildings in the weeks prior to 9/11/2001,” he wrote.

He said his investigation was finding fluorine and zinc in metal debris and dust gathered from near the trade center site, and argued that those elements should not have been found in the building compounds. “We are investigating the possibility of thermite-based arson and demolition,” he wrote, referring to compounds that, under controlled circumstances, can cut through steel.


From an interview by Jim Fetzer (January 17, 2007):
Jim Fetzer: Q: “are you suggesting both [thermate/superthermite] were
used in the Twin Towers?”

Steven Jones: A: “I’m suggesting that’s possible along with other
explosives”



The Open Chemical Physics Journal, 2009, 2, 7-31 7
1874-4125/09 2009 Bentham Open
Open Access
Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade
Center Catastrophe
Niels H. Harrit*,1, Jeffrey Farrer2
, Steven E. Jones*,3, Kevin R. Ryan4
, Frank M. Legge5
,
Daniel Farnsworth2
, Gregg Roberts6
, James R. Gourley7
and Bradley R. Larsen




He started with a sample of dust, analysed it and found the ms. Only then did he hypothesize thermite.
You are either mistaken or lying. Please prove me wrong.
 
WHAT IS a testable theory in your mind?

Have you ever heard of a "scientific test"? This is what the "debate" has devolved into: explaining basic scientific terms to adults.

A "hypothesis" is a guess about something. A "test" is a method to determine the merits of a hypothesis. A "hypothesis" and a "theory" are the same thing for this discussion. Take a minute. Let that soak in.

Now, I know what your hypothesis is. How do you confirm it? More importantly, have you tried to disconfirm it? That's "science"! I'm sorry I don't have a talking puppet to explain this more clearly.


They used a computer simulation, which is the best they could do.

You realize they had a $20 million dollar budget? And they couldn't test their theory in the real world?

Why don't the UL floor truss burn tests count as disconfirmation of the official theory?


The fact here, is that there IS no testable theory that will placate you. It doesn't exist. Just admit it for chrissake.

I realize you're agitated. I would be too. But no need to take the LORD's name in vane.

Name ANY testable theory that confirms the official narrative.


Of course I wouldn't accept that, because they didn't implode. They collapsed.

Anyone else want to take a swing at defending a non-theory by some other method besides pointing to youtube videos?


Cute. You don't honestly think you have the acumen to speak to me, or anybody in that manner, do you?

You're very confident for someone who doesn't know what a scientific test is.
 
No, you are mistaken. He didn't claim "thermite did it" then find the microspheres. He first found the microspheres, then theorized thermite.
...)

Nope, Jones made up thermite, now jumped to over unity circuits; more BS. He made it up, he is a BS artist who jumps from BS to BS, and never stops. He is the guy who is always making up BS, nice, personable, a liar. Okay, lies are hidden in his BS.

Jones made up thermite out of the blue... okay he saw sparks, and then he backed in BS.

http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/wtc/videos.html
http://tinyurl.com/7drxn

WTC collapses due to controlled demolition
Steven E. Jones
Professor of Physics/BYU

I believe WTC collapses to be due to controlled demolition are:

1. My own analysis of the "pancaking" floors model (the FEMA/NIST model) combined with Conservation of Momentum considerations gives a much longer time for the fall (over 10 seconds) than that which was actually observed for WTC-7 (about 6.3 seconds, just over the free-fall time of 6.0 seconds). I find no evidence in their reports that government researchers (FEMA, NIST, 9-11 Commission) included Conservation of Momentum in their analyses.

2. The fact that WTC-7 fell down symmetrically, onto its own footprint very neatly, even though fires were just observed on one side of the building. A symmetrical collapse, as observed, requires the simultaneous "pulling" of support beams. By my count, there were 24 core columns and 57 perimeter columns in WTC-7. Heat transport considerations for steel beams heated by fire suggest that failure of even a few columns at the same time is very small. Adding in the Second Law of Thermodynamics ("law of increasing entropy") leads to the conclusion that the likelihood of near-symmetrical collapse of the building due to fires (the "government" theory) -- requiring as it does near-simultaneous failure of many support columns -- is infinitesimal. Yet near-symmetrical collapse of WTC-7 was observed. (If you still haven't gone to the links above to see the actual collapse for yourself, please go there now.)

Note that the 9-11 Commission report does not even deal with the collapse of WTC-7. This is a striking omission of highly relevant data.

3.Squibs (horizontal puffs of smoke and debris) are observed emerging from WTC-7, in regular sequence, just as the building starts to collapse. (SEE: http://tinyurl.com/7drxn ) Yet the floors have not moved relative to one another yet, as one can verify from the videos, so air-expulsion due to collapsing floors is excluded. I have personally examined many building demolitions based on on-line videos, and the presence of such squibs firing in rapid sequence as observed is prima facie evidence for the use of pre-positioned explosives inside the building.

4. The pulverization of concrete to powder and the horizontal ejection of steel beams for hundreds of yards, observed clearly in the collapses of the WTC towers, requires much more energy than is available from gravitational potential energy alone. Explosives will give the observed features. Other scientists have provided quantitative analysis of the observed pulverizations, and I can provide references if you wish. Here we are appealing to the violation of Conservation of Energy inherent in the "official" pancaking-floors theory-- a horrendous violation, forbidden by principles of Physics. (What is going on for the FEMA/NIST researchers to make such striking errors/omissions?)

5. I conducted simple experiments on the "pancaking" theory, by dropping cement blocks from approximately 12 feet onto other cement blocks. (The floors in the WTC buildings were about 12 feet apart.) We are supposed to believe, from the pancaking theory, that a concrete floor dropping 12 feet onto another concrete floor will result in PULVERIZED concrete observed during the Towers' collapses! Nonsense! My own experiments, and I welcome you to try this yourself, is that only chips/large chunks of cement flaked off the blocks -- no mass pulverization to approx. 100-micron powder as observed. Explosives, however, can indeed convert concrete to dust --mostly, along with some large chunks-- as observed in the destruction of the Twin Towers on 9-11-01.

6. The observations of molten metal (I did not say molten steel!) in the basements of all three buildings, WTC 1, 2 and 7 is consistent with the use of the extremely high-temperature thermite reaction: iron oxide + aluminum powder --> Al2O3 + molten iron. Falling buildings are not observed to generate melting of large quantities of molten metal -- this requires a concentrated heat source such as explosives. Even the government reports admit that the fires were insufficient to melt steel beams (they argue for heating and warping then failure of these beams) -- but these reports do not mention the observed molten metal in the basements of WTC1, 2 and 7. Again we have a glaring omission of critical data in the FEMA, NIST and 9-11 Commission reports.

7. I understand that models of the steel-frame WTC buildings at Underwriters Laboratories subjected to intense fires did NOT collapse. And no steel-frame buildings before or after 9/11/2001 have collapsed due to fire. Thus, the "official" fire-pancaking model fails the scientific test of REPRODUCIBILITY. (Earthquake- caused collapses have occured, but there were no major earthquakes in NYC on that day. And buildings which have collapsed due to earthquakes collapse asymmetrically, as expected -- not like the nearly straight-down collapse of WTC 7 to a small rubble pile!)

8. Explosions -- multiple loud explosions in rapid sequence -- were heard and reported by numerous observers in (and near) the WTC buildings, consistent with explosive demolition. Some of the firemen who reported explosions barely escaped with their lives.

Essentially none of these science-based considerations is mentioned in the Popular Mechanics article on this subject, authored by B. Chertoff (a cousin of M. Chertoff who heads the Homeland Security Dept.) (Squibs are mentioned briefly, but the brief PM analysis does not fit the observed facts.)

I have performed other analyses regarding the WTC collapses on 9-11-01 which may be of interest --let me know if you're interested. The matter is highly interesting to me as a physicist -- and as a citizen of the United States. I conclude that the evidence for pre-positioned explosives in WTC 7 (also in towers 1 and 2) is truly compelling.

Steven E. Jones
Professor of Physics/BYU

This article was posted on 9.16.05
Jones was upset with war, so he went nuts, making up BS about 911.

You appear to have done zero research into anything related to 911; did you make up the microsphere BS, like jones made up thermite did it?

better copy this paper, it use to be at BYU, but they stopped Jones from posting BS at BYU. Jones first paper, when he went nuts on 911.
Jones, the daddy of fantasy thermite.

NIST tested floor assemblies to see if they stood up to the fire tests, they were not testing to see if they failed in fire, they had to not fail to prove the building was up to some level of specifications - thus you failed to read NIST for comprehension.

The WTC collapse is a real full up model of fire induced collapse, and engineers tested the theories, and found the WTC could collapse in fire. Research proves your new tag line, "no testable theory" is a another failed tag line for 911 truth followers to use to support fantasy, since doing engineering and science is out.
 
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Crikey.

Multistrawmadhominunempiricalifragilisticexpialid'oh!cious.

I take it you're the keeper of the secret tests for the "NIST theory of collapse"? Let's hear it.

Seriously, if I came here saying "IT'S THERMITE!!! Just take my word for it", everyone on this site would lambast me (and rightly so) for being a complete moron. Yet that's the exact position you are taking if you cannot show your work.

So again, show me a testable theory for the official narrative, or hide behind more diversionary tactics.
 
Have you ever heard of a "scientific test"? This is what the "debate" has devolved into: explaining basic scientific terms to adults.

A "hypothesis" is a guess about something. A "test" is a method to determine the merits of a hypothesis. A "hypothesis" and a "theory" are the same thing for this discussion. Take a minute. Let that soak in.

Now, I know what your hypothesis is. How do you confirm it? More importantly, have you tried to disconfirm it? That's "science"! I'm sorry I don't have a talking puppet to explain this more clearly.

My cat vomits more rationality than that.




You realize they had a $20 million dollar budget? And they couldn't test their theory in the real world?

How? Would you have them build a 110 story building, and cause it to collapse into a 47 story building, both filled to the brim with office contents, carpeting, drywall, etc....? Is that your idea of a "testable" theory?

I realize you're agitated. I would be too. But no need to take the LORD's name in vane.


lol

Name ANY testable theory that confirms the official narrative.

ETA - do you honestly need a "testable theory" that says fire can weaken steel?

I think it just occurred to me....

Are you under the impression that NIST is the sole arbiter of information on what happened on 9/11? Their word is all there is?


You're very confident for someone who doesn't know what a scientific test is.

I know what it constitutes in my reality.
 
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I take it you're the keeper of the secret tests for the "NIST theory of collapse"? Let's hear it.

Seriously, if I came here saying "IT'S THERMITE!!! Just take my word for it", everyone on this site would lambast me (and rightly so) for being a complete moron. Yet that's the exact position you are taking if you cannot show your work.

So again, show me a testable theory for the official narrative, or hide behind more diversionary tactics.

Why do you need answers when you have already done your research.
 
Zero responses from anyone attempting to say what the testable theory was. Zero.

At this point, it's clear that the official narrative cannot undergo the kind of scrutiny that the CD Thermite theory has already undergone and survived. The CD theory is, by objective standards (not my personal ones), a better theory than the official explanation as well as all the other tin-hat productions, (i.e., DEW, No-Planes, Nukes, etc.)

Now we can throw the "NIST Theory of Collapse" into the basket with the rest of the untestable, low-explanatory-power theories like "space beams" and "holographic planes."

So, if the defenders of the official story don't have any scientific confirmation of their favorite pet theory, what other kinds of nonsense do they subscribe to? If "reasons" don't matter, why not believe in Vincent, the All-Powerful sea otter who inhabits the toilets of people who deny science? You have as much reason to believe in Vince as you do the official narrative. No one has tested for the existence of Vincent, so in your world, that's as iron-clad as the official story.
 

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