Is there a legitimate reason to question the official narrative*?

Is there a legitimate reason to question the official narrative?


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I suspect a part of it is the lack of understanding of scale. They see pictures of the twin towers, which look like tall, thin objects, and seemingly fail to realize that each floor had only slightly less area than a football field. Expecting them to topple from failures on one floor, or even several floors, is akin to expecting your car to roll over when it gets a flat tire. That only happens with the addition of a significant sideways force.

Awww HHound, I have said much the same thing wrt the supposedly small fires. Some see fires over a quarter of one side of a floor and assume small fire when in fact that would be large enough of a fire to fully and completely envelope an average residential home. Since they can only see one side at a time in most videos or photos they seemingly cannot envision that such large scale fires were in effect on several adjacent floors within seconds of the aircraft impacts and that this is a condition that would usually take hours to develop in a common office fire.

In fact I know of NO incidence in which such multi-floor wide area fires occurred in an office or apartment structure in seconds. Perhaps MM or Jango could tell me if there is any such example.
 
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I’ve watched then twice now.
:rolleyes:

Actually I lost count a decade ago, how many tines I have watched the videos of the collapses.
I never ceases to amaze me when ever those persons operating under personal incredulity assume that those who operate under the principles of preponderance of evidence, and the applied sciences, must not have seen the videos of the collapses.

Indeed, I've noticed that conspiracy theorists seem to want everyone to think the nefarious conclusions follow inexorably and inarguably from their observations. By failing to state the line of reasoning they have used to draw the conclusions, they effectively place it beyond criticism. This effectively shields the underlying assumptions from an examination they rarely survive.

But I don't think it's necessarily a conscious process. I've noticed that the best proponents of ideas -- even ones I disagree with -- can articulate the reasons why they themselves believe something. They've thought about it. They may have reached a different conclusion than others, but they can explain the conclusion they reached. Conspiracy theorists in general can't go into specifics as much, revealing that their conclusions are intuition, gut feeling, and general impressions -- not reasoned consequents.

Hence it's a foreign concept to them that any of their theories can possibly have a reasoned, well-informed rebuttal. They indeed assume that if you don't agree with their conclusions, then it can only be because you haven't seen any evidence. The notion that a set of observations can be interpreted exactly only one way -- their way -- is a denial of the intellectual process, most notably a denial of it in their own work.
 
Hence it's a foreign concept to them that any of their theories can possibly have a reasoned, well-informed rebuttal. They indeed assume that if you don't agree with their conclusions, then it can only be because you haven't seen any evidence. The notion that a set of observations can be interpreted exactly only one way -- their way -- is a denial of the intellectual process, most notably a denial of it in their own work.

OR,
The disagreement is due to the person explaining a reasoned argument must be part of the supposed cover up. Again because of a steadfast and religious belief in their own uninformed and politically charged world view. gut feeling.
 
Doesn't seem implausible to me.

What's your explanation / narrative of events?



How so?



No. He may or may not have been sincerely religious, but his foreign policy had nothing to do with religion or fighting evil as far as I can tell. Where am I wrong?

I'm sorry that I didn't respond to this.

1. The 9/11 story starts before the 1990's, so I am not going to start there. I think a more appropriate starting point is in the late 1990's, which was a time for the U.S. IC when they recognized the seriousness of the threat that they were facing -- a global terrorist organization capable of pulling off multiple high casualty attacks simultaneously and who wanted to kill as many Americans as they could regardless if they worked for the government. Remember, the East African embassy bombings were a part of the upwards trend of terrorist attacks by Islamists specifically targeting the U.S.

C.I.A. Director Tenet declared war on OBL later in '98. The C.I.A. by that time had already had a unit specifically focused on OBL for 2 years. OBL had been a closely-watched-man since 1991. His desire to attack America was well-known throughout the '90's. OBL was not alone in that desire, as the Islamic extremist movement to attack the U.S. (and the West in general as well as Israel) gathered a lot of momentum in the 90's, which is evidenced by the '93 WTC bombing, the Eiffel Tower plot involving Algerian terrorists, the Bojinka plot, the bombings in Saudi Arabia and threats against specific targets like the WTC (using planes, no less) by Egyptian terrorists.

The U.S. IC was also aware of sleeper cells. The U.S. IC had extensive dealings with infiltrators before 9/11, just like every other intelligence service on the planet. Counterintelligence exists to catch terrorists and spies alike. Though it is officially disputed, the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) ran an open-source data mining program and identified several of the al Qaeda hijackers, including Mohammed Atta. It was reported (in Britain, France, Germany and Israel) that the Israeli Mossad had given U.S. Intelligence a list with all of the hijackers names on it -- as Israel was actively spying on Arabs/Muslims in the U.S. at the time. IIRC, 2 hijackers stationed on the West Coast lived with an F.B.I. informant. The C.I.A. knew that several hijackers had entered the U.S. It has been reported (by Richard Clarke and the BBC) that the C.I.A. tracked some of the hijackers and tried to recruit them. The F.B.I. (as evidenced by the 8/6/01 PDB) knew that active casing measures were being undertaken by the sleeper cells in the preparation of hijacking aircraft.

The story as it stands now is that on 9/11 the hijackers got on U.S. commercial aircraft unopposed because they had avoided detection by the U.S. IC. Well, unfortunately, the open-record refutes that claim. Many people who worked in the U.S. IC at the time have expressed frustration at the fact that when the flight manifests were pulled and the names of the hijackers were learned that it pissed them off to realize "We know these names." It has also been revealed to us that a few of the IC analysts working on the OBL/al Qaeda were wanting to quit prior to 9/11 (paraphrasing) "because we knew an attack was coming and no one was doing anything about it."

The "not doing anything" didn't originate from incompetency. U.S. Executive Leadership is well-informed. The C.I.A. purposely made the effort to combat the notions from Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld that the threats were propaganda and not to be taken seriously. It has been reported that when Bush received the August 6th briefing at his ranch in Texas, he said to the briefer (paraphrasing) "All right, you've covered your ass now."

What we saw on 9/11 was the result of purposeful administrative inaction. The upper echelon of the Bush administration had been peppered with information about OBL/al Qaeda/their plots since before Bush even took office (from a crooked election, no less) by the U.S. IC transition team. They knew the attacks were coming and just stood by and let them happen.

2. By utilizing the massive worldwide informant network the U.S. can either control themselves or get access to by friendly intelligence services. Pursuing leads. Going through records from the I.N.S. and State Department (knowing that there were sleeper cells currently inside the U.S.). Utilizing other methods at their disposal like databases or intrusions into private networks they think might be relevant.

3. Bush didn't know much about 'foreign policy'. That was talked about before he was elected. He was a lightweight. He had a team of right-wing foreign policy gurus, called The Vulcans, give him crash courses on the way geopolitics work. His religiousness was well-established prior to taking the oath of office as President. While he said many outrageous things as POTUS, I don't think him talking about religion in context to his foreign policy decisions or the way he viewed the struggle is among them. I believe he was sincere when he made those remarks.
 
Jango, I am impressed, this summary almost makes sense. Where I disagree (but remain ultimately undecided - see how I voted on the poll above) is the allegation that the failture to act against the plot "didn't originate from incompetency" and "was the result of purposeful administrative inaction". I think that claim is not made out (and perhaps cannot be made out). I don't see that the IC dissenters that you mention (Clarke and others) make the same accusation, despite their being in a much better position to pass such judgement if it were warranted.

So I think you are overstating the strength of evidence for a "LIHOP" scenario. I'd admit though that it can't be ruled out completely.


Now that stance of "purposeful administrative inaction" needs to be squared with residual allegations, hinted at by you here and there, that some things about the flight patterns, the air defense response, the building collapses, etc etc were somehow the result of something beyond the terrorists' plot to hijack and commandeer airliners.
 
Seconded, I can't see too much to argue with in all this. I think the only things I would dispute are:
(1) However dubious Bush's election, it's never been proven that it would have gone the other way, and it's a bit of a stretch to call it crooked;
(2) That the inactivity of the Bush administration was purposeful; it seems to me an equally good explanation that they were so focused on Saddam Hussein that they simply couldn't take any other threat seriously.

There's also the rather knotty problem that it wasn't all that easy to take action against suspected terrorists when they hadn't actually done anything illegal. Were the USA a police state, of course, that wouldn't have been a problem, but as it's still a state where human rights are protected, then they tend to be protected even for those who would attack it. Of course, that abuse almost inevitably led to somewhat poorer protection of those rights in an effort to prevent something similar happening after 9/11.

Dave
 
...
What we saw on 9/11 was the result of purposeful administrative inaction. The upper echelon of the Bush administration had been peppered with information about OBL/al Qaeda/their plots since before Bush even took office (from a crooked election, no less) by the U.S. IC transition team. They knew the attacks were coming and just stood by and let them happen. ...
The big lie you have is, "they knew the attacks were coming", BS so darn dumb it burns.

... What we saw on 9/11 was the result of purposeful administrative inaction. The upper echelon of the Bush administration had been peppered with information about OBL/al Qaeda/their plots since before Bush even took office (from a crooked election, no less) by the U.S. IC transition team. They knew the attacks were coming and just stood by and let them happen. ...

BS - when I supported mission in Desert Storm, launched crews, made decisions, we did not have to ask permission from the administration to take action. In fact, the people I worked with, trained, or worked with me, would do extraordinary things to save lives, or assets, without permission. Which means, even if the administration wanted inaction, they can control the massive system we have, based on more than the President.



911 was the result of 19 terrorists actions, and using the customary response of the USA to hijackings as a ruse, an end-run, to pull off 911. Yet they failed, Flight 93 was stopped by people who stood up and took action.

Killing UBL before 911, would not stop 911. Unless we did it in the 90s, when he promised to kill us. Before the failed nuts fell for UBL's BS based on me being in Saudi Arabia, because UBL is a spoiled brat.
 
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The big lie you have is, "they knew the attacks were coming", BS so darn dumb it burns.



BS - when I supported mission in Desert Storm, launched crews, made decisions, we did not have to ask permission from the administration to take action. In fact, the people I worked with, trained, or worked with me, would do extraordinary things to save lives, or assets, without permission. Which means, even if the administration wanted inaction, they can control the massive system we have, based on more than the President.



911 was the result of 19 terrorists actions, and using the customary response of the USA to hijackings as a ruse, an end-run, to pull off 911. Yet they failed, Flight 93 was stopped by people who stood up and took action.

Killing UBL before 911, would not stop 911. Unless we did it in the 90s, when he promised to kill us. Before the failed nuts fell for UBL's BS based on me being in Saudi Arabia, because UBL is a spoiled brat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cun-LZvOTdw
 
After all this time you still respond with Youtube? really?

If you don't like Youtube, then tell me a video hosting website I can use in my responses, especially when I am being sarcastic, so that *********** retarded canard is not brought out. Is there such a magical video hosting website that would pass your sniff test of sarcastic replies or a reply of any kind? I mean really, how in the hell am I supposed to translate whatever the **** beachnut is ever trying to say? I re-read his post several times but kept coming back to "WTF?" I was going to ask for a translator, but I suppose my liking of Hot Fuzz triggered that memory of that hilarious scene I linked too. Dialects are interesting. Language is interesting. People rag on me for not seeing the world in such optimistic lenses, but I enjoy the small stuff just like any other person. It is amusing see people from different places on this planet we all share try to communicate over the Internet. There are some non-U.S. citizens that can speak and write English without any problems whatsoever. But, there are non-U.S. citizens that butchers the language. To be fair, there are Americans by the busload that butcher English too. Have you ever been in a true melting pot of peoples and cultures before, like the armed forces, perhaps? In my experience, there were people from all walks of life -- from all over the states and some were from U.S. territories, from humble economic origins like myself to *********** Rich People status, different ethnicities, cultures, religions, norms and the like. Beachnut just reminds me of Marines I encountered or worked with who did not have the English language nailed down tightly -- they could communicate better in a different language, which I suspect is the case with beachnut.

Edited by Agatha: 
Edited to remove improperly masked profanity. Please type profanity out in full and let the autocensor take care of it.

But since Youtube is out, am I allowed to use this instead in response to beachnut or beachnut quality posts in the future?:

[IMGw=200]http://i.imgur.com/pQMgkBt.jpg[/IMGw]
 
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I suspect Captain_Swoop didn't even click the youtube-link (neither did I), as, in our collective experience, videos without a written summary, reference to a specific scene with timestamp and argument that is supported by the video, are almost always a waste of time.
 
I suspect Captain_Swoop didn't even click the youtube-link (neither did I), as, in our collective experience, videos without a written summary, reference to a specific scene with timestamp and argument that is supported by the video, are almost always a waste of time.

Jesus, dude. You guys need to lighten up and get off the atmospheric levels of proof to be reached before committing to something. This is an Internet message board, after all -- it is all a waste of time. And I'm not going to waste my time providing all of that extraneous nonsense to illicit more clicks. Click or don't click. The choice is yours. I don't click on many links here, so I suppose the feeling is mutual then ;)
 
Jesus, dude. You guys need to lighten up and get off the atmospheric levels of proof to be reached before committing to something. This is an Internet message board, after all -- it is all a waste of time. And I'm not going to waste my time providing all of that extraneous nonsense to illicit more clicks. Click or don't click. The choice is yours. I don't click on many links here, so I suppose the feeling is mutual then ;)
Why do you post lies?
Too busy to waste time; thus, post lie, run, "they knew the attacks were coming". Now you are too busy, post lie, run. Another new 911 truth approach, no, same old BS.

... They knew the attacks were coming and just stood by and let them happen. ....
Got some evidence? No, you post a video to explain you don't understand what you posted?

Spread lies about 911, say lighten up; mislead people who take it serious, like the Boston bombers, using 911 as a link in the chain to failure. Yelling fire in a crowed movie theater, and running away, too busy to back up anything, pulling pranks, spreading made up conclusions based on nothing.


... What we saw on 9/11 was the result of purposeful administrative inaction. ....
where can we get a BS flag... BS, and you can't support this, a waste of time for you to support BS you post - you said so; post a video which sums up your points; BS fictional claptrap which makes no sense - what were you saying...
Why are you wasting your time here, posting lies about 911?

You never said what the official narrative you question is. Never will, it is a waste of time, yet you started the thread... another waste of time, looking up a failed weak insult in the form of a video, to have it be a better representaion for -
... They knew the attacks were coming and just stood by and let them happen. ....
- 19 terrorists did 911, the reality based official fact.
 
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1. Bin Laden declared war on the US in 1996:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/military-july-dec96-fatwa_1996/

2. Beachnut is correct, most agencies do not require direction from the White House to take action. One glaring fact that you and every other Truther ignores is that the DoD DID take action by closing off public access to all military installations in the US (out here NPS and DLI erected fences and added high-tech security gates). When asked why, the DoD told anyone who would listen that there was an active terror threat, and they needed to minimize risk.

This also highlights the intelligence gap. DoD felt the threat was real and assumed the attack would be directed at military targets within the US. It is obvious from this that the intel was vague enough that they saw what they wanted to see. This was echoed by the July travel warning issued by the State Department warning of hijacking. In their case they assumed the hijacking would occur in the Middle East.

Agencies were taking precautions to ward off an attack but they didn't know where it would come from or what the target would be.

The idea that the White House sat on the situation demonstrates a lack of basic knowledge of how the government operates.
 
1. Bin Laden declared war on the US in 1996:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/military-july-dec96-fatwa_1996/

2. Beachnut is correct, most agencies do not require direction from the White House to take action. One glaring fact that you and every other Truther ignores is that the DoD DID take action by closing off public access to all military installations in the US (out here NPS and DLI erected fences and added high-tech security gates). When asked why, the DoD told anyone who would listen that there was an active terror threat, and they needed to minimize risk.

This also highlights the intelligence gap. DoD felt the threat was real and assumed the attack would be directed at military targets within the US. It is obvious from this that the intel was vague enough that they saw what they wanted to see. This was echoed by the July travel warning issued by the State Department warning of hijacking. In their case they assumed the hijacking would occur in the Middle East.

Agencies were taking precautions to ward off an attack but they didn't know where it would come from or what the target would be.

The idea that the White House sat on the situation demonstrates a lack of basic knowledge of how the government operates.

Yes, because the WH has never done anything like that before :rolleyes:
 
Yes, because the WH has never done anything like that before :rolleyes:
Like the lie you made up? How can they do what you made up?
Which is what?
19 terrorists did 911, you lied saying the WH knew it was coming.
Wait, this is BS is your opinion, not factual, but your BS opinion.
 
Yes, because the WH has never done anything like that before :rolleyes:

And this is where you project and go off-track. Resist the urge! "Evil government" is a monocausal shortcut into fantasyland. It informs us about the reality of you, not the reality of government.
 
And this is where you project and go off-track. Resist the urge! "Evil government" is a monocausal shortcut into fantasyland. It informs us about the reality of you, not the reality of government.

Any government can be 'evil'. Their evilness comes in variations too. However, government can also be a life-saver. It is a very bipolar mixture. And whether we get one extreme or a mixture of both (including neutrality) is determined by what is in front of the decisionmakers to decide about and whether or not they give a damn.

Domestic terrorism in the U.S. by Islamic extremists was not a priority for the Bush administration prior to 9/11 even though the Director of Central Intelligence was 'running around with his hair on fire' warning that 'the system was blinking red'. As information about the day of 9/11 came out slowly over the years, we got to learn that our Secretary of Defense immediately pointed at Iraq to attack. This was later expanded to showcase that Afghanistan didn't have any attractive targets for U.S. bombs, but Iraq certainly did. Richard Clarke has commented on his surprise when POTUS started talking about attacking Iraq. Wolfowitz and Cheney were of course on board with that idea as well.

Attacking Iraq had become a go-to right-wing talking point long before 9/11. The think tank that Rumsfeld, Cheney and Wolfowitz were members of openly and actively called for a re-prioritization of U.S. Power. It was along the same lines that Cheney & Wolfowitz proposed when working for the DOD under President George H.W. Bush. It is also in line with other conservative and neoconservative ideas for using U.S. Power. One interesting aspect is that Iraq's need to be destroyed was echoed in both the U.S. and Israel. If you don't know about it yet, take a gander at this: https://web.archive.org/web/20140125123844/http://www.iasps.org/strat1.htm

Funny how 3 (Iraq, Lebanon and Syria) out of the 4 (Iran being the 4th) targeted countries mentioned have already been vigorously addressed, even Syria being rolled back (via massive Civil War) is there to be seen. Why do you think the right-wing members of the U.S. Congress are so adamant about Iran? Because the they think that Iranian missiles could stand a chance of landing on U.S. soil? No, but if they do, they must be experiencing political amnesia because that's what was said of Iraq too. Israel said that about Iraq too. Hmm...

What could it all mean?
 
I again agree with almost everything that you write: Yes, of course governments can be evil, and all too often are, and yes, I agree that the US government was evil when it decided to launch an all-out war against Iraq on the pretense that Saddam somehow was a threat to the US. and it abused the shock and anger after 9/11 to sell that war to the American people.

None of that increases significantly the probability that the government knowingly and purposefully allowed 9/11 to happen. This would of necessity imply that executive orderd were delivered down to the operational level to not do the job and avert whatever threats arose. This did not happen - you have no evidence for this, and it is exactly the sort of thing that would be extremely hard to keep secret. The women and men in he servives aren't stupid - they'd know at some level if there were some order at some level to stop them and keep Atta's 19 going, and you can't count on all these men and women to cover up for such murder.

Now, I have not forgotten about the orders to individual field officers to not interfere with two of the 19 in California; and about the effort to remain hush about the role of Saudi financing. But I also want to point out that these officers DO talk, and we ARE informed about the Saudi connection, and those in the know giving us that information themselves do NOT think the administration had an active hand in "letting it happen on purpose" (LIHOP).

So, I will agree that the administration had its priorities wrong and that chances to stop the attack were missed, but that assessment is made with the benefit of hindsight and no evidence for "evil government at work to harm the People".
 
How about the fact that there is no testable theory proposed by the official sources? That doesn't seem to bother anyone on a skeptic site. Weird.

I appreciate Oystein's agnosticism towards this question, btw.

This question was my starting point. I wasn't a doubter of the official conspiracy theory until I tried to find out what the official theory was. As it turns out, there are a couple of anecdotal explanations of why the WTC towers fell. Upon further inspection, the mechanisms appealed to in these versions are never given a real set of criteria by which they could be tested.

I thought there must be a mistake, or the theory they tested is located somewhere else in the documents. Nope. The harder I dug, the more I was convinced that there was no testable official theory. It's just armchair hypothesizing.

Now, I realize some of you will immediately, and without much thought, (I'm talking about you, beechnut), jump in to reply to this with some garbled, run-on sentence that conveys little more than a grunt of disapproval. But the fact remains: nowhere in the 10,000+ pages of the NIST report will you find a testable theory about the collapse of the WTC towers.

The closest they come is in the finite element analysis where they run some simulations on floor-wall joints and find they need steel temps of 700C for 30 minutes--steel temps, not air temps. Officially, conditions did not exist in the towers for the steel itself to get to 700C for 30 minutes. But even if they did, we know through the UL truss tests that the steel was not nearly as maleable in real life as it was in the simulations.

But here I am on a site devoted to skepticism (which apparently, the Amazing Randy wants nothing to do with anymore), in which the members defend the initial hypothesis and all versions of the OCT, yet are unmoved by the fact that there is no testable theory involved.

This is what gets me: scientific investigation has allowed us to decipher the number of planets revolving around a star hundreds of light years away using complex Fourier analysis and sensitive radio analysis. Murders have been solved from tens, even hundreds of years later. Destroyed airplanes are dredged up from the ocean floor and examined to ascertain the cause of failure. No one says "just take our word for it, that's what happened." There is real science done to determine the causes.

Nothing supernatural happened on 9/11/01. The laws of physics were not superceded. Yet, we have no testable theory.

So yes, the official version is questionable, if you are looking for answers.
 

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