Is there a legitimate reason to question the official narrative*?

[jaydeehess]

One of the reasons cited by Jango for a reinvestigation was the supposed suspicious nature of FF Palmer stating he had small fires on the 78th floor.
THAT particular item was addressed and yet despite being specifically asked if this is satisfactory, Jango has yet to reply.
Perhaps it was missed so I repost it again. I would appreciate an answer, no matter how short, to the question hilited at the end of the post.

Boy! Getting a reply on this one simple aspect of the events of the day it like pulling teeth,,,, from a dental patient who seemingly refuses to even sit back in the chair again.

 

[abaddon]

Boy! Getting a reply on this one simple aspect of the events of the day it like pulling teeth,,,, from a dental patient who seemingly refuses to even sit back in the chair again.

It's the MO of the no-claimer to state any CT they wish in terms of vague suspicion that "it doesn't look right to me" while simultaneously disclaiming all responsibility for said claims in order to avoid any and all burden of proof which devolve from such non-claims. While I am not accusing our protagonist of such, it sure "looks like it to me". The very same rhetorical gambit is often exhibited in the "just JAQing off" ploy, which is so often seen among the CT crowd.

 

[Jango]

One of the reasons cited by Jango for a reinvestigation was the supposed suspicious nature of FF Palmer stating he had small fires on the 78th floor.
THAT particular item was addressed and yet despite being specifically asked if this is satisfactory, Jango has yet to reply.
Perhaps it was missed so I repost it again. I would appreciate an answer, no matter how short, to the question hilited at the end of the post.

The mix up, as of right now, is on what some are calling the impact zone I.e. not the 78th floor.

From the NYTimes:

A lost tape of lost voices, ignored until recently by investigators studying the emergency response on Sept. 11, shows that firefighters climbed far higher into the south tower than practically anyone had realized. At least two men reached the crash zone on the 78th floor, where they went to the aid of grievously injured people trapped in a sprawl of destruction.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/04/n...rs-some-on-the-78th-floor.html?pagewanted=all

It goes on to say:

Although most elevators were knocked out of service, Chief Palmer found one that was working and took it to the 41st floor. At that point, he was halfway to the impact zone, which ran from the 78th to the 84th floors.

And this too:

As he began climbing, he crossed paths with a handful of injured people who had been in the 78th floor Sky Lobby, where scores of office workers had been waiting for express elevators when the second plane hit. The tip of its left wing grazed the lobby, instantly killing most of a group variously estimated between 50 and 200 people.

One more:

Ronald P. Bucca reached the impact zone on the 78th floor.

From USA Today:

The jet crashed into the 78th through 84th floors of the south tower.

In the south tower, United Airlines Flight 175 struck the 78th through 84th floors. The higher wing cut into the offices of Euro Brokers, a financial trading firm. The fuselage tore into Fuji Bank offices on the 79th through 82nd floors.

The bottom wing of United Flight 175 ripped through the south tower's 78th floor elevator lobby.

Source: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2001/12/19/usatcov-wtcsurvival.htm


Do you see the disconnect I'm having with what you're saying and what, I'm sorry to say, more credible sources have said?


P.S. - Is there any way to get quote notifications on here?

 

[Fonebone]

(excerpts)
You failed to show anything. You string quotes together, cry liars, and run off not proving it.

911 was a surprise attack, but not like Pearl Harbor; the Japanese brought their own planes.

911 was a surprise attack, unless you take the warning in the 90s as the "you knew it was coming as your use 20/20 hindsight and back in BS".
-snip-


Yes, you were stringing together disjointed BS quote mines which don't support anything close to a first narrative torn to shreds. You left out the meaning, and never made a conclusion past an opinion Myers lied; and failed to mention Myers; are you saving that one; google it up yet.

What was Myers lie, and how does it fit in your claims.

The other posters are much better than I at explaining and hitting bad pitches out of the park...

Myers' LIE
Bush's LIE
Condi's LIE
etc...

From June 2000 published by the U.S. dept of Justice--
Note the title and the targeted audience.
Shown as hard evidence ....

 

[jaydeehess]

The mix up, as of right now, is on what some are calling the impact zone I.e. not the 78th floor.

Do you see the disconnect I'm having with what you're saying and what, I'm sorry to say, more credible sources have said?

No, I do not. Probably because its exactly what I have been saying. You are going to have to explain the difference between what I said and what these reports say.

I am encouraged by the fact that you replied to my inquiry.

 

[jaydeehess]

Myers' LIE
Bush's LIE
Condi's LIE
etc...

From June 2000 published by the U.S. dept of Justice--
Note the title and the targeted audience.
Shown as hard evidence ....

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/3638154b88ea335d91.jpg[/qimg]

Yeah? A picture of a building that had already been the target oaf a large explosive. I get the feeling this is supposed to be a self evident bit of evidence. Pretend I don't get it and explain in detail.

 

[jaydeehess]

]Re: fire on the 78th floor of WTC2
Cobbled together from several posts above


Fire fighter Palmer calls from the 78th floor saying he has multiple injured and dead up there and that the fires on that floor are isolated, small and he needs two lines to put them out.

The 78th floor is the lowest fire involved floor in either building. Anyone reaching the 78th floor of WTC1 would have found no fires.
Flt175 impacted several floors, 78 being the one that the far end of the port wing sliced into. The 78th floor had little to no aviation fuel dumped onto it as a consequence of being hit by the outboard most part of the wing.The vast majority of fuel was dumped onto the next few higher floors and that is where the greatest fires were. However, Palmer isn't going to send guys higher up until he at least has water supply so that he does not risk isolating his own people up there. It is hard enough getting manpower up there. In addition its going to make the most sense to fight this fire floor by floor, get 78's fire knocked down before proceeding to 79, etc.


The vast majority of fuel was dumped on floors in line with where the tanks on the planes were. That much needs little reasoning to determine. Those floors also took the brunt of physical damage as they are also in line with the greater mass and dense parts of the aircraft. Again not a lot of reasoning to manage to understand that.

More damage includes damage to perimeter floor portions, and core areas, which includes the most obvious paths, vertically, through the building, the damaged floors where maximum damage was done, again higher than 78, and the elevator shafts.
Any fuel going through shattered floor sections goes down one level and this occurs only nearer the perimeter. Inner flooring was intact. Fuel in elevator shafts goes where gravity sends it, down until it encounters either an elevator car or the bottom of the shaft. One shaft went all the way to the basement, others terminated at various floors. While 78 was one of those floors two things are possible; fuel did spill out from one shaft onto the 78th and is the source of at least one of the fires Palmer reports on; the elevator(s) from above that terminate at the 78th did not have fuel flow in it(them).

WRT fuel in the elevator shafts, depending on the amount of fuel and the duration of the fall, a substantial amount of it will aerosolize in the process, making it a substantial ignition risk.

Victims were trapped, as they themselves reported, on higher floors. Stairs were destroyed and fire was cutting people off. Does that sound like minimal damage, does that sound like minimal fire? Do the videos not show intense fires?(yes they do unless one specifically searches, dishonestly, for photos showing faces of the 200 foot by 200 foot structure, that show less fire at some periods). There really is no question whether or not there were large area fires above the 78th floor of WTC2

I believe that this coherently, understandably and unemotional explains the situation. This is an aspect of the fires often opined upon by the truthers side.
Jango expressed that this aspect of the fires gave him pause as being odd.
I must inquire again if this fully addresses that and makes it non-odd?

How is that different from USA Today or NYT

 

[Jango]

How is that different from USA Today or NYT

This:

The bottom wing of United Flight 175 ripped through the south tower's 78th floor elevator lobby.

 

[Jango]

No, I do not. Probably because its exactly what I have been saying. You are going to have to explain the difference between what I said and what these reports say.

I am encouraged by the fact that you replied to my inquiry.

I will respond to you if I know that you are communicating with me. Is there any way to get quote notifications, or do I have to wait for some phantom post count before that function is unlocked a la posting links?

 

[Dave Rogers]

The mix up, as of right now, is on what some are calling the impact zone I.e. not the 78th floor.

Nobody's saying that the 78th floor wasn't part of the impact zone. What we're saying is that the 78th was the lowest floor in the impact zone. As the plane was in a bank at the time of impact, the only part of it that impacted the 78th floor was one wingtip, and that part of the wing was outboard of the fuel tank. So little or no fuel was dumped into the 78th floor, which, given the fact that floor 78 had a much smaller fuel load because it was a sky lobby rather than office space, makes it very likely that the fires on the 78th floor were much less intense than those on the floors nearer the centre of the impact zone.

For someone who says he wants answers, you could do a better job of paying attention to the ones you're given, rather than misrepresenting them and then claiming that they're lies. The latter behaviour is what we're used to from the "truthers" round here.

Dave

 

[Jango]

Nobody's saying that the 78th floor wasn't part of the impact zone. What we're saying is that the 78th was the lowest floor in the impact zone. As the plane was in a bank at the time of impact, the only part of it that impacted the 78th floor was one wingtip, and that part of the wing was outboard of the fuel tank. So little or no fuel was dumped into the 78th floor, which, given the fact that floor 78 had a much smaller fuel load because it was a sky lobby rather than office space, makes it very likely that the fires on the 78th floor were much less intense than those on the floors nearer the centre of the impact zone.

Now we're getting somewhere. Thank you.

Okay. If the fires weren't that bad on the 78th floor and they were an inferno above the 78th floor, what kind of conditions would that leave the 78th floor considering that the above floors reached the required temperatures to weaken the steel? I don't expect or even anticipate an exact answer, but if say, floor 79-84 were something like 1,500+°, how hot would the 78th floor have been through processes like conduction?

This would be excellent opportunity to go over the WTC blueprints and design features. This is an area where there is a giant ? for me. Like, what was in-between the 78th and 79th floors?

For someone who says he wants answers, you could do a better job of paying attention to the ones you're given, rather than misrepresenting them and then claiming that they're lies. The latter behaviour is what we're used to from the "truthers" round here.

Dave

1. No one has said it like you have to me yet I.e. you've answered it the best. Thank you.

2. Where have I claimed what you suggest? Quote please, sir.

 

[beachnut]

Myers' LIE
Bush's LIE
Condi's LIE
etc...

From June 2000 published by the U.S. dept of Justice--
Note the title and the targeted audience.
Shown as hard evidence ....

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/3638154b88ea335d91.jpg[/qimg]

Yes, you call people liars. All of 911 truth is a lie. Why can't you see those lies. Wait, you made up the Bush lie, Condi's lie, and etc lie. You don't like them, so you call them liars. Why does your liar radar fail on 911 truth lies?

 

[jaydeehess]

]Re: fire on the 78th floor of WTC2
Cobbled together from several posts above

The 78th floor is the lowest fire involved floor in either building. Anyone reaching the 78th floor of WTC1 would have found no fires.
Flt175 impacted several floors, 78 being the one that the far end of the port wing sliced into. The 78th floor had little to no aviation fuel dumped onto it as a consequence of being hit by the outboard most part of the wing.

How is that different from USA Today or NYT

Jango asks about where the impact was.

Dave Rogers then says:
What we're saying is that the 78th was the lowest floor in the impact zone.

Now we're getting somewhere. Thank you.
.

Dave said the same thing I did but only NOW we are getting somewhere?

Where were you when I asked three times whether or not the replies had satisfied you? When you finally deign to respond you reply very non-specifically.

Did you not know that the plane that hit the south tower was in a steep bank when it hit? I fail to understand how anyone claiming to be interested and curious about the events of Sept 11/01 could not have seen the dozen or so videos of this aircraft crash.

 

[jaydeehess]

Okay. If the fires weren't that bad on the 78th floor and they were an inferno above the 78th floor, what kind of conditions would that leave the 78th floor considering that the above floors reached the required temperatures to weaken the steel? I don't expect or even anticipate an exact answer, but if say, floor 79-84 were something like 1,500+°, how hot would the 78th floor have been through processes like conduction?

Its not a binary situation. The 79th to 84th floors suffered greater damage nearer where the bulk of the aircraft hits. They suffer greater effect of liquid fuel accelerant on the floors where the fuel tanks were in line with the building. INITIAL fire on the 79th would likely be lesser than the the 80th. Given that the fuel tanks were within, and close to, the fuselage, one could expect the greatest effect of that fuel to be on the 81st floor. INITIAL fire on the 84th would be expected to be about the same as the 78th. The big difference between 78th and 84th would be that fire tends to move up a building so with infernos on the 80, 81, 82, one could expect greater fire progression upwards to 83, 84, 85 than down through 78.

Additionally, the jet fuel fires did not in themselves cause sufficient heating to weaken the structure. The jet fuel caused INITIAL wide are fires on several vertically adjacent floors which then involved the contents of the offices. The fires, over the course of the time between impact and collapse, were primarily office fires. The big difference between these events and so called normal office fires, is that usually a fire starts small, in one location, and builds and spreads over the course of several hours before it gets to the point where it would resemble the situation in the towers.

1. No one has said it like you have to me yet I.e. you've answered it the best. Thank you..

????
I answered you, and then ASKED you if it was sufficient, three times before you replied with no specific request for more info.

 

[Ape of Good Hope]

Jango asks about where the impact was.



Dave said the same thing I did but only NOW we are getting somewhere?

Where were you when I asked three times whether or not the replies had satisfied you? When you finally deign to respond you reply very non-specifically.

Tell me about it...

Back on page three I gave Jango several pertinent links ( not once but twice) regarding his floor 78 misassumption.

Reply came there none.


(to be fair though, I was a little testy...)

 

[jaydeehess]

Tell me about it...

Back on page three I gave Jango several pertinent links ( not once but twice) regarding his floor 78 misassumption.

Reply came there none.


(to be fair though, I was a little testy...)

Nor were you and I the only ones. Dave Rogers stated the same point a few times, that 78 was hit by the outer part of the left wing. That defines 78 as part of the impact zone, impact zone=those floors hit by any part of the aircraft. Not a hard concept to grasp. Jay Utah, and a few others also went through this. Only now, when Dave says it yet again does it get read with comprehension?

Initial fires ignited by jet fuel, not a hard concept to grasp.
Jet fuel being dumped on floors in line with the fuel tank's line of travel, not a hard concept to grasp.
More jet fuel in a particular area=greater extent of INITIAL fire on that floor
Flight 175 in an steep bank, obvious in several widely distributed videos, described in minute detail in the NIST reports, but seemingly an unknown fact to Jango.
WTC7 having also collapsed on 9/11. Here is a factoid that I will admit many did not know until later. Those people are the type that don't normally watch the news. They can't be since this was also widely reported on later in the day on at least the cable news channels.

 

[JSanderO]

Initial fires ignited by jet fuel, not a hard concept to grasp.
Jet fuel being dumped on floors in line with the fuel tank's line of travel, not a hard concept to grasp.
.

The tanks did not survive the impact... Surely they broke apart and the fuel with momentum continued to travel and with great force... until it encountered "stuff" and especially the rigid columns which would cause it to disburse. Imagine shooting a balloon at 400 mph into a bird cage. The balloon would shatter.. the cage wires ripped and bent and the fuel spread like a energetic spray from nozzle.

What didn't burn would pool and seek it's lowest level finding shafts to spill down into.

 

[sylvan8798]

Okay. If the fires weren't that bad on the 78th floor and they were an inferno above the 78th floor, what kind of conditions would that leave the 78th floor considering that the above floors reached the required temperatures to weaken the steel? I don't expect or even anticipate an exact answer, but if say, floor 79-84 were something like 1,500+°, how hot would the 78th floor have been through processes like conduction?

This would be excellent opportunity to go over the WTC blueprints and design features. This is an area where there is a giant ? for me. Like, what was in-between the 78th and 79th floors?

You seem strangely reluctant to come out and say exactly what you think the problem(s) are, but I'm going to take a stab at your logic and say that it seems to be: Fire chief reaches 78th floor and states needs hoses for 2 small fires. 78th floor is neither an inferno nor an oven. Therefore 79th floor must not be an inferno either. Therefore suspicious.

There are many here who can address these questions, but I would just point out that these buildings were 208 feet X 208 feet, which is AN ACRE. A lot can be happening in an acre of space.

As for what was between the 78th and 79th floors, likely the same thing that was between most of the floors. Concrete slabs on metal decking, long-span bar joists, columns, air, carpet, tile, walls, people, office stuffs, windows. What big mystery is there in your mind?

 

[DGM]

The tanks did not survive the impact... Surely they broke apart and the fuel with momentum continued to travel and with great force... until it encountered "stuff" and especially the rigid columns which would cause it to disburse. Imagine shooting a balloon at 400 mph into a bird cage. The balloon would shatter.. the cage wires ripped and bent and the fuel spread like a energetic spray from nozzle.

What didn't burn would pool and seek it's lowest level finding shafts to spill down into.

Don't under estimate the damage the mass of fuel would do. Purdue even stated they were surprised at the damage the fuel mass alone would cause.

Think flood waters in a tidal wave or jumping off a high platform into water. At a certain point there is no difference between water and solid ground.

500 MPH is way above that threshold. The balloon is irrelevant.

 

[jaydeehess]

The tanks did not survive the impact... Surely they broke apart and the fuel with momentum continued to travel and with great force... until it encountered "stuff" and especially the rigid columns which would cause it to disburse. Imagine shooting a balloon at 400 mph into a bird cage. The balloon would shatter.. the cage wires ripped and bent and the fuel spread like a energetic spray from nozzle.

What didn't burn would pool and seek it's lowest level finding shafts to spill down into.

I thought it would be obvious that I meant the line of travel they were on while still inside the aircraft as it was about to impact the building.
However, yes, I do see that some might interpret my phrasing as meaning the trajectory of intact fuel tanks on the inside of the perimeter columns.
To be more succinct then:
The individual components of the aircraft were on a specific tarjectory as part of the intact aircraft. When the aircraft hit the perimeter columns two things were occurring; the aircraft was being torn apart by the steel columns ; and the columns were reacting to the transfer of energy from aircraft to column and were bending inwards, some to the point of complete failure. Some of those individual parts of the aircraft were the fuel tanks which iirc are in the fuselage belly, and in the close in, wider, more robust portions of the wings. As those fuel tanks tore apart their contents would be dispursed into the structure along the line of travel that the fuel was moving while still in the tanks. Yes JSO, like shooting a ballon at a birdcage. In fact not unlike sending a stream of water at a birdcage. However, note that the most dense parts of the aircraft are in the same vicinity as the tanks, wheels, engines, fuselage, and that the tanks are set back from much of that. Its very probable that some of the columns were already bent to breaking by the time the tanks get to the perimeter in which case they enter with less spray.