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Is the radical right dumbing down the GOP?

NO I have to disagree with this, The ONLY reason that their ideas SEEMED right through the 19th and 20th century is mostly luck, bigotry and geography.

The whole republican meme of the bootstrap self made man crap only works if you ignore the blatant bigotry which allowed these men to make their fortunes on slaves and Indians through the 17-19th centuries. And a matter of geography which allowed this country to go totally unscathed through WW 1 and WW 2.

The reason that the US has been successful for the second half of the 20th century had nothing to do with republican ideas, but rather that the rest of the industrial world was destroyed and pretty much None competitive for the first 50 years.

The us has been living in this bubble which allowed these people to brainwash the mostly uneducated about how great their ideas are at the expense of those same people.


Only now that that bubble has burst is the curtain crumbling.

Wow, I definitely get your point, and I think you are mostly right, but I am sure there has got to be some policy of the GOP that is good. Ben Burche's example of emancipation was good (although that was by no means the reason they started the Civil War).

I agree in general with the idea of cutting government spending, but it is the specifics that get the GOP in trouble. Lately though, it seems that their policies have been getting progressively worse, and instead of dealing with that problem, the GOP is just going deeper into denial.

It's like the constant search for a viable GOP Presidential candidate. Everyone keeps looking for 'rising new stars' that they don't know anything about because just about all of the current members of the GOP are crazy nuts with terrible ideas, and then they learn about the ideas of their 'rising new GOP star,' and realize their ideas are terrible and they are crazy nuts, and they more on to find the next 'GOP rising star.'

Eventually, they will have to admit that the problem is the terrible GOP policies themselves.
 
There´s always the more sinister way of using a scapegoat... promise your sheeple that, if only you got rid of those evil ones who are to blame for everything, things will be fine again.

Just get rid of illegal immigrants, and there are going to be jobs for everyone.

Just get rid of secular liberal scum, and society will be moral and God-fearing again.

Just get rid of Muslims, and the threat of terrorism will be over.

Just get rid of Jews, and nobody is going to stab the army in the back again and rob them of their victory.

No, wait... one of those was from another guy with a similar approach to gaining popularity...

Talk about a blame-based understanding system.
 
I think there are a lot of people who would like to support Bachman, but they can't get past her crazy side to give her support.
Without her crazy side she's just like a bunch of empty suits. Without it why would anybody support her?
 
Without her crazy side she's just like a bunch of empty suits. Without it why would anybody support her?

It seems like some people actually believe she would be good for the Country. The problem is that to think that she would be a positive influence in any way couldn't be any farther from the truth.

Which gets to the heart of the thread. There are people in the GOP with less destructive ideas than the Tea Party, so why do the crazies get so much support?

Is it all for them about ignoring our problems and not dealing with them?
 
Now that we have the Tea Party Credit Downgrade, I think we can conclude that yes, the GOP is definitely being dumbed down by it's radicals.
 
Now that we have the Tea Party Credit Downgrade, I think we can conclude that yes, the GOP is definitely being dumbed down by it's radicals.
BARACKALYPSE is due to Obama. Without the TP pushing for at least some cuts, there wouldn't have any cuts and we'd be downgraded to about A or A- by now.
 
Hmmmm......

We lowered our long-term rating on the U.S. because we believe that the prolonged controversy over raising the statutory debt ceiling and the related fiscal policy debate indicate that further near-term progress containing the growth in public spending, especially on entitlements, or on reaching an agreement on raising revenues is less likely than we previously assumed and will remain a contentious and fitful process.

Dems: We propose to cut spending and raise taxes.
Repubs: We propose you sit down, shut up and cut spending.
 
BARACKALYPSE is due to Obama. Without the TP pushing for at least some cuts, there wouldn't have any cuts and we'd be downgraded to about A or A- by now.

That's absolutely not true. Whether or not you believe the cuts were good and should have been pushed for, it was taking the debt ceiling talks hostage to do so that was directly cited by S&P. (Yes, I know it wasn't the only reason cited, and I'm not claiming it was the sole reason.) If the TP hadn't been doing that, the credit rating wouldn't have been dropped yet. One might speculate that it would have dropped lower in the long term, but there is no plausible way that without TP pressure we would have been downgraded further by now. Right or wrong, they pushed the issue and forced the downgrade now.

Very early one Obama caved to almost all of the GOP demands. Hell, it appears that the GOP was willing at that point. The TP pushed for an amendment to the Constitution while using our credit rating as a bargaining chip. This drew out the talks longer than needed. That happens to be another reason directly cited by S&P.

If you want to argue what the TP did was right in the long run there are ways to do it. To blame Obama for the current mess up is frankly ridiculous based on the evidence so far. I'd blame Congressional Dems before Obama for this specific mess.
 
The Republicans did didley squat. What could they have done?

Repubs: Our proposal, for every point in across the board spending cuts we will raise tax rates for everyone above $250,000 by one point.

There is a word for that kind of negotiation. It's called "good faith".

Repubs: We proposes you sit down, shut up and do what we tell you to do.
 
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010...47002_page4.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/08/05/60minutes/main6747002_page4.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody

I'm trying to get some solid, balanced facts about Medicare, and the Health Care Program, and what I keep getting is more and more biased hate and rage. Not very helpful, folks.

These forums attracted me because often they do filter out a lot of the kneejerk reactions - but not always. Maybe someone can start a new thread: Real ways to address health care costs.

I'm pissed as hell that my diabetes went undiagnosed for nearly SIX MONTHS while I was a member of Kaiser[/, even though I was starting to show symptoms and kept asking about it.

This shouldn't happen - and I'm not speaking as a humanitarian; it shouldn't have happened for business reasons. Blood sugar test not hard or expensive. Moral of the story, docs will listen to your first major complaint and address that, so the dots don't get connected. BTW up to half the people who have diabetes don't know it. I'm not saying it's right, just that it happens so plenty of docs miss it. To the extent we can inform ourselves - from quality Web sites, for example - we need to.

So, if we can get past the hate for the Right, and get into something that resembles fact and substance, what are the proposals?

I'm a bit of a ghoul but with a better name "death panels" might not be too far off the mark. Some 20 percent of people spend their last days in ICU. Though a majority of Americans say they want to die at home, 75 percent die in a hospital or nursing home. The system skews toward spending huge sums at the end of life when often supportive and much cheaper care is indicated.

Another reason: The sheer number of medical interventions is far higher than it used to be. Since Medicare reimburses by the procedure, once a patient is in a hospital there is high motivation to keep doing more tests, etc.

Another: Health insurance is a reasonable concept. But because we're thinking "insurance will cover it," we tend not to raise a stink about the $8 aspirin tablet on our hospital bill.

Another reason: The money that could go into providing care often goes instead to dispute resolution. Hospitals, trying for maximum reimbursement, fight insurers, who are trying to minimize costs.

Another reason: We're just not as healthy as we could be. Another: Fear of malpractice suits for fear something has been missed. Retiring debt on all the machines hospitals must buy to stay competitive. If you buy an MRI machine, you want to keep it busy cranking out billings for insurers.

Despite the fears and scaremongering surrounding "socialized medicine," it really is more efficient. The voucher plan or whatever just means more confusing stuff thrown at people trying to pick a plan. In my opinion vouchers won't create competition; they will create collusion.

OK, with all that rant, keep something in mind, much as we like to complain about fat cat doctors', much of the money we spend, public and private, is going to nurses, aides, medical technologists, physical therapists, nutritionists, and so forth. The dollars are not going into a black hole. The whole enterprise is keeping a lot of people employed, and while this may not be the optimal way to do it, the money isn't disappearing. Perhaps doctors and insurers are taking more than their fare share, I haven't seen a breakdown.

There must be a good book out there about all this stuff, any recommendations?
 
Perhaps doctors and insurers are taking more than their fare share, I haven't seen a breakdown.
I think I intuitively know what you mean by this but I just want to say I don't personally think there is any such thing as a "fare share". Capitalism doesn't work if we decide ahead of time who can be rewarded how much. That said, if we have a system whereby the customer is removed from the process and the medical industry can charge almost anything they want we could predict those costs would rise faster than inflation and indeed that's what we see. In that way it could be argued that taking away the controls of the free market create an unfair system.
 
The shortage of doctors and nurses in the US has been noted as significantly raising costs and stretching the work force thin. In addition to that, the vast pay discrepency in different specializations of medicine narrowly focuses graduates into those fields, putting further strain on other fields until the market reverses the relative pay between the two. Graduating MDs have between 150k and 250k in debt. PhD MDs can sky rocket into the 300k+ range. Further tightening doctor and nurse pay would tighten the shortage of labor and likely result in a net increase in medical costs as hopsitals would be required to deal with higher risk and forced into more overtime payment. A smaller prospective field of doctors would increase up front costs in training, but those who make it through would end up working even more OT granting even higher take home despite less pay contracted. A single doctor making less takes home more than 3 doctors making more because of the massive cost of OT. Unless of course we are talking about freezing out increased pay for OT even further on doctors and REALLY tightening the labor shortage and also hugely affecting outcomes.

From what I understand a greater labor pool with reduced up front costs to prospective MDs would help mitigate the costs. For instance, student debt forgiveness for time served as a doctor would open the field to more people. There are plenty of programs that help the talented but poor get through medical school, but those are generally tapped and don't equal the level of broadbased support for increasing the labor pool as other nations see with stronger Governmental investment. The lessened burdened of debt would allow doctors more choice in fields of study and keep the market from wildly swinging across specializations. Such doctors could accept lower pay but still end up with more money without as much debt to worry about.

As is student loans, including those for doctors, are largely backed by the US government. The losses are soaked up the tax payers and the profits are soaked up by the banks. This is not an evil practice by the banks, just smart. These profits are paid by doctors, driving up the costs for doctors to operate and to even enter the field. This results in higher medical costs, most of which are paid by the US government.

My suggestion would be for the government to fully compete in loans to medical students instead of subsidizing private companies to do so. Loan profits are used to lower the rates over all and cover the losses (which we already eat so this isn't a new cost to the taxpayer). Doctors can work at public hospitals for loan forgiveness as part of their compensation. Their financial outlooks are stronger with less debt and more specializations can field full labor forces.

This wouldn't solve all medical costs problems, but it is an example of one way we could reign in part of it.
 
I don't personally think there is any such thing as a "fare share".

I meant fair share, of course. Anyhow as pointed out above many new doctors have debt. I find that observation more useful than screeds about greedy docs.

Health care technology has outpaced our ability to pay for it - as far as I can tell it's outpaced anybody's ability to pay for it.
 
I meant fair share
:o

...of course. Anyhow as pointed out above many new doctors have debt. I find that observation more useful than screeds about greedy docs.
Agreed.

Health care technology has outpaced our ability to pay for it - as far as I can tell it's outpaced anybody's ability to pay for it.
Not in most industrialized modern liberal democracies.
 
Not in most industrialized modern liberal democracies.

Agreed. It did outpace the ability of the cluster(bleep) that is the so-called US health care system to pay for it, though... or at least the willingness of the insurances to pay and the ability of everyone else to make them pay.
 
Not in most industrialized modern liberal democracies.

I have a suspicion other countries are less in denial about death. Don't have any statistics - I'd be interested in finding out.
 
I have a suspicion other countries are less in denial about death. Don't have any statistics - I'd be interested in finding out.
Mortality rates are a very important variable to calculate Human Development Index. Check it out and look at the list for "equality adjusted".

America is kinda like one half of your body in a freezer at -10° and the other half in an oven at 208° and thinking that's healthy because the average is 99°. Kinda but not exactly as that's a dichotomy and America is more of a bell curve.
 
Our Death Rate is about in the middle as far the type of countries we would generally want to compare to, and in reality about close to the world average. A number of third world countries actually have lower death rates... as do places like China and Cuba. This is generally attributed to ease of access to vehicles. Mexico, Australia, Canada, Ireland, Israel, most of the middle east (not including south asia) and most of south america beat us. The UK, Sweden, France, Germany, Finland, Norway ect all have higher Death Rates. In some cases this is attributed to aging populations (the US has rather high immigration rates that helped slow this down for a time), and other cases its attributed to lifestyle choices regarding cholesteral, alcohol and tobacco. Obesity is pretty bad in the US and not quite as bad in the UK, but drinking and smoking tends to be more heavily a practice in a number of these countries compared to the US. Not always.

Just as RandFan alluded to, the problem in the US isn't largely the average outcomes it is the disparities. The Death Rate across the US and across sub populations varies much more drastically than in typical first world countries. The outcomes for the highest priviledged isn't even drastically altered compared to the highest priviledged in other countries as the average is mostly determined by the middle and lower classes. The middle classes in our country by and large have great access to health care, it is the cost to them that tends to be out of proportion. If the lowest income classes had nearer outcomes from similar access we would probably start to make even better inroads compared to other nations. Europe as a whole could start seeing further inroads with recent decades of greater economic entanglement, but that might fall apart with their current economic troubles. The US has the entire US to draw on for quality care so we have an advantage Europe is only recently had a taste of. If we can work on more universal access that the Europeans are used to we might really gain some quality inroads. We could beat Canada!

An aversion to death though would help with cost savings. It wouldn't necessitate increased death rates. Its more a matter of recognizing at what state someone is in and recognizing that does not mean we have given up. Being in a hospice doesn't mean not getting saved from a complication. Its more recognition that certain types of attempts won't affect anything regardless. If you are on your way out because you are in your 90s a heart transplant isn't going to save you. Drastic treatments are not going to save you. Pretty much its general resucitation, drugs and a few machines to maintain you are the only worthwhile options. All available at a hospice for less price because they have specialized in that sort of care.
 

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