Is the Master a fraud?

[Dancing David]

Mr. dtector,
On which points exactly are you uncomfortable, I have read the challenge and find it to be fair. If I was to design a test of paranormal powers I would probably include even more restrictions than Mr. Randi does, but then I am not as adept at sleight of hand as he is.

Is your objection that Mr. randi can over rule his judges?

In where do you find that Randi is a fake, on this board it is considered a courtesy to back up statements with citations and references, please explain.

I do not find that Randi has set himself up as a charismatic leader, he allows for all sorts of discussion on these boards.

And yes people were frauds before they entered the challenge , but so what that is the nature of chalatans.

Could you please enumerate you feelings?

Thanks

 

[Dancing David]

dumbass
Morons
idiot.


anal retentive morons
***********
Anything is possible. History has proven this. Discoveries of new scientific facts are the very thing that has brought us to this point in technology. To simply say things are not possible because they escape conventional belief is ignorant. [
**********************/B]

Your name calling does little to convince any one of anything, but it will brand you as a troll.

Not anything is pausible! Anything is not possible either.

Merely asserting that something could be possible does not show that it is so, in science the burden is on the person who makes the claim to demonstrate the facts. Conventional belief is the major target of the people on these board which you already knwo.

It would seem that you just don't like Mr. randi, you have nothing to back your statemnets except to say you don't like Mr. Randi.

So wheres the beef?

 

[squibby]

Is the Master a fraud?

No, but Ron Hughes is.

He's quoted as saying. " We will all know the absolute truth regarding the mystery of life after death the day we die" -Ron Hughes..Paranormal Researcher.

Unfortunately for him, he will never know he is wrong. And we will never know we were right.

squibby

 

[Dancing David]

These rules, be it noted, are in stark contrast to Mr. Randi's frequent public assertions that he wanted demonstrable proof of psychic powers. First, his rules are confined to a single, live applicant. No matter how potent the published evidence, how incontestable the facts or rigorous the precautions against fraud, the number, qualifications or expertise of the witnesses and investigators, the duration, thoroughness and frequency of their tests or (where statistical evaluation is possible) the astronomical odds against a chance explanation: all must be ignored. Mr. Randi thrusts every case into the bin labelled 'anecdotal' (which means not written down), and thereby believes he may safely avoid any invitation to account for them.
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

Above quoted from link in the original post.

So a bunch of people create fraudulent research, that has no basis in the scientific method and then this is supposed to be incontravertible proof!

Sorry,
and Harry Anderson, noted pickpocket could claim that it was a fairy that removed the person's warch from thier wrist, it does mean that he didn't do it himself.

 

[glee]

SpectorDetector, do you think that Nature and Science are engaged in a conspiracy to suppress all paranormal research?

No only anal retentive morons who believe in nothing except their own dilusions of grandure.

Ah, so the man who posted "...the long-standing refusal of these two leading scientific journals to publish anything touching on the paranormal" is an 'anally retentive moron, who believes nothing except their own delusions of grandeur'?
But that was you.

Anything is possible. History has proven this.

You're saying that apples can float away from the Earth, because gravity is sporadic?
You're saying that objects with mass can travel faster than light?
You're saying that there is not conservation of momentum in a collision?
And all these things have been proven by History?
Or are you saying that unscientific people have made unsound forecasts in the past (the Earth is flat and the centre of the Universe)?
There is quite a difference (!) between these two positions.

Discoveries of new scientific facts are the very thing that has brought us to this point in technology.

Well the scientific method is certainly invaluable. Test, theorise, predict and test again.
In what way does e.g. the refusal of the British Society of dowsers to be tested fit into the scientific method?

To simply say things are not possible because they escape conventional belief is ignorant.

And your cite for this quote is?

How do you feel about "things are not worth investigating if they are purely anecdotal claims which contradict a massive body of established scientific knowledge (and the claimant refuses to be scientifically tested)."

 

[Michael Redman]

Hey Mikey WRONGGGGGGGGGGGGG again dumbass . Your 0 for 2

0 for 2? Wrong "again"? That was my first post, genius.

By the way, you're doing a wonderful job of proving your case.

 

[uruk]

OH WHY!, Oh why do we feel the need to take the bait and feed
the starving narcississm of a pale, pasty, pimply faced, adolecent who is intraveneaously hooked up to his X-box and in way-too-much need of human companionship and sun light.

His pathological overuse of Smilies is dead give away.
as are his inflamatory and unsupported arguments.

And his early use of the word "dumbass" also shows his inexperiance. Anybody who knows proper debating proceedure knows that "dumbass" is'nt used untill the closing rebuttal.

Clearly, this person is in need of help. So please dig deep and send any substantial monetary contributions to:

The Society for the Foundation of the Organization of the Association of People for the Ethical Treatment of Pale, Pasty, Pimply Faced, Adolecent Sociopaths who are Intraveneaously Hooked up to a X-box and in Way-Too-Much need of Human Companionship and Sun Light and Pathological Abusers of Smilies.

or the SFOAPETPPPFASIHXWTMHCSLPAS

Care of: My Carribean bank account.

please make checks payable to "Cash"

There are people hurting out there

 

[billmi]

You're saying that objects with mass can travel faster than light?

To be entirely off topic, why not?

If the general theory of relativity is correct, an object traveling at the speed of light would have infinte mass, infnite width and cease to exist in length, because the equation for its distortion hits a divided by 0 error.

It's possible that at C, the formula does not apply, as divided by 0 errors are a convention of our mathematics, rather than a feature of physics. It could be that closer to C the formula is inadequate to describe matter distortion.

Even if it does apply, it only means that an object starting at a velocity of less than C can not be accellerated to C because the mass would become infinite and thus the energy needed for accelleration would be infinite.

However, plug in velocities above C and the mass increase and distortions reverse. The same formula used to say it's not possible to accellerate matter to C does not contraindicate that matter can travel at velocities faster than C. It just indicates that they they would not be able to be accellerated from a speed below C to a speed above C, or be decelerated from a speed aboce C to a speed below C.

-Bill

 

[Aoidoi]

I'm just curious about something. If you were absolutely sure of your arguments, completely conviced that you had the upper hand and that those arguing against you were simply too mentally deficient to see it, wouldn't you at least attempt to appear intelligent in order to help your case and prevent people from taking pot shots at you for a lack of such things as spelling and grammar?

For example:

No only anal retentive morons who believe in nothing except their own dilusions of grandure .

Just correcting the spelling and punctuation mistakes:

No, only anal retentive morons who believe in nothing except their own delusions of grandeur.

Look, that took me about 5 seconds to run through a spellchecker and proof read once. It doesn't fix the ad hominem (anal retentive morons) or poisoning the well fallacies (arguing those who disagree are insane), but at least it prevents readers from wondering if you really are too incompetent to proof read your own posts.

Most of the time I don't bother pointing out spelling or grammar errors. We all make mistakes, it's not worth dwelling on. But to start posting about Randi's challenge on his own board with such semi-literate prose is rather like marinating yourself in A-1 before facing the ravenous lions. It probably isn't going to make the situation much worse, but it sure isn't going to improve your chances.

 

[billydkid]

So......

Idiot? LOL

Typical response from a dipsh*t , nolife dumbass whos only human contact is on a message board on the web.

Your obvious irritation over the revelation that James Randi is an attention whore has clouded your ability to form an intelligent response .

Your anger doesnt change the fact that The Million Dollar Challenge is a farce as is James Randi .

You should go buy tickets to the next John Edward telecast and mabey you'll hear from your great granny ( through Mr Edward) what you've suspected all along . You need to get out more and quit being a suspicious , uptight ,anal retentive dipsh*t.

So let me get this straight - you believe in the supernatural? You have an deep emotional investment in believing in the supernatural? Otherwise, I can fathom the source of your outrage.

 

[TheBoyPaj]

Isn't it odd how mediums' powers cannot be controlled or relied upon but they get hit after hit every night in front of a paying audience?

 

[Clancie]

Posted by MartinM

As Brown points out, you've yet to demonstrate this deception.

SpectorDectector, Martinm....

What do you think of the new thread here, "Yellow Bamboo--For Real?"

By all indications a JREF representative went to Bali and conducted a preliminary test of Yellow Bamboo's claim.

THEY PASSED!!!!

Now, instead of saying they passed the preliminary test, we are hearing the words "preliminary demonstration."

Clearly they complied with the rules and should advance to the final. For Randi to do otherwise (as he seems to be indicating is his plan) does, indeed, seem highly "deceptive."

 

[reprise]

Clancie, the problem is that we don't know the specific details of the correspondence between the Bamboonies and JREF in relation to this particular observer.

It seems incredibly unlikely that when an agreement for the term of the preliminary challenge is negotiated it does not either specify a date on which the challenge is to take place or include a clause along the lines of "at a time and place to be agreed upon between the parties". Attendance on behalf of JREF does not automatically mean a person is there to conduct the preliminary testing. They may be there to gather information about things to control for or be specifically alert for during the conduct of preliminary testing.

I agree that ambiguity about the nature of this particular observer's role at this particular demonstration needs clarification. Were it an actual preliminary test, though, I would have expected the place and time of that test to have been announced in advance.

 

[ImpyTimpy]

Anyone else think Aforce is back?

 

[thaiboxerken]

SpectorDectector, Martinm....

What do you think of the new thread here, "Yellow Bamboo--For Real?"

By all indications a JREF representative went to Bali and conducted a preliminary test of Yellow Bamboo's claim.

THEY PASSED!!!!

Bullshat, they did not use the protocol agreed upon. A double handed, cave-man strike is not a "tap". Now you are just being deceptive and dishonest as to the nature of the challenge itself. Do you actually believe that the yellow bamboozlers have superpowers and that the JREF is just refusing to acknowledge it?

 

[MemeHacker]

Clancie, the problem is that we don't know the specific details of the correspondence between the Bamboonies and JREF in relation to this particular observer.

It seems incredibly unlikely that when an agreement for the term of the preliminary challenge is negotiated it does not either specify a date on which the challenge is to take place or include a clause along the lines of "at a time and place to be agreed upon between the parties". Attendance on behalf of JREF does not automatically mean a person is there to conduct the preliminary testing. They may be there to gather information about things to control for or be specifically alert for during the conduct of preliminary testing.

I agree that ambiguity about the nature of this particular observer's role at this particular demonstration needs clarification. Were it an actual preliminary test, though, I would have expected the place and time of that test to have been announced in advance.

The reason why it seems ambiguous is because Randi is presently leaving out the details that would make it clear. On July 4th he asked for volunteers to conduct the preliminary test according to the protocols agreed upon between YB and the JREF, he even mentioned specific dates. Joko Tri conducted the preliminary test as the JREF represenative, and reported that he has no idea how but that he was knocked down, which was the requirement for YB passing.

SpectorDectector, Martinm....

What do you think of the new thread here, "Yellow Bamboo--For Real?"

By all indications a JREF representative went to Bali and conducted a preliminary test of Yellow Bamboo's claim.


THEY PASSED!!!!

Bullshat, they did not use the protocol agreed upon. A double handed, cave-man strike is not a "tap". Now you are just being deceptive and dishonest as to the nature of the challenge itself. Do you actually believe that the yellow bamboozlers have superpowers and that the JREF is just refusing to acknowledge it?

You seem confused about what passing the preliminary test means. It doesn't mean they have superpowers, it just means they met the requirement of the protocol. You call Clancie "deceptive and dishonest as to the nature of the challenge" yet seem to sincerely believe that because it was too strong of a strike to be a "Tap" that somehow it shouldn't count.

I'm curious, have you even seen the official protocol? Do you know how it was communicated to Joko Tri and YB. I personally I have only read little snippets from Randi and he doesn't seem completely consistent in saying what the protocol was himself. There are subtle but significant diffrences between what Randi said the protocol was on July 4th compared to the recent commentary he made, not the best way to convince me he communciated it clearly to Joko Tri and the YB.

Regardless of the minor details the core of the test was honored. A JREF rep tried to hit the YB guy with a stick, saying it doesn't count cause he had the wrong size stick and used the wrong grip, and moved at the wrong speed is lame. Cause in case you haven't put it together yet, it was the JREF reprensenative who wasn't following the protocol.

Wether he didn't understand or didn't consider minor details important doesn't change the simple fact that the JREF rep clearly was present and made no objections to the way the test was run.

 

[kookbreaker]

Before everyone gets into a tizzy, I would point out that even if this was a formal preliminary test, they are not the first to ever pass a preliminary pass by Randi, just the first to do so while the challenge was under the banner of the JREF. (as opposed to when it was just Randi's $10,000 challenge.

To quote Flim-Flam (written in 1981)

"In repsonse to that challenge, over 650 persons have applied as claimants. Only 54 ever made it past preliminaries..."

emphasis aded.

Preliminaries have likely tightened up since the old days, but it still does not mean anything. Its like Luci claiming victory for the Russian girl because she could read with an untaped blindfold.

 

[thaiboxerken]

The reason why it seems ambiguous is because Randi is presently leaving out the details that would make it clear. On July 4th he asked for volunteers to conduct the preliminary test according to the protocols agreed upon between YB and the JREF, he even mentioned specific dates. Joko Tri conducted the preliminary test as the JREF represenative, and reported that he has no idea how but that he was knocked down, which was the requirement for YB passing.

False, the protocols were not carried out according to plan. A 6-foot long staff is not a wand. A double-handed overhead strike is not a tap.


You seem confused about what passing the preliminary test means. It doesn't mean they have superpowers, it just means they met the requirement of the protocol. You call Clancie "deceptive and dishonest as to the nature of the challenge" yet seem to sincerely believe that because it was too strong of a strike to be a "Tap" that somehow it shouldn't count.

Yes. A double-handed, overhead strike is never considered a tap. Calling it a tap is dishonest. I don't just believe that it was too strong to be a tap, but any reasonable person would also not consider it a tap.


I'm curious, have you even seen the official protocol? Do you know how it was communicated to Joko Tri and YB. I personally I have only read little snippets from Randi and he doesn't seem completely consistent in saying what the protocol was himself.

Are you implying dishonesty on Randi's part here?

There are subtle but significant diffrences between what Randi said the protocol was on July 4th compared to the recent commentary he made, not the best way to convince me he communciated it clearly to Joko Tri and the YB.

That's your problem, reasonable people understand that a 6ft pole isn't a want and an double-handed, overhead strike isn't a tap.

Regardless of the minor details the core of the test was honored.

Those are hardly minor details. I guess, according to you, bringing a real gun to a paintball fight is just a minor detail.


A JREF rep tried to hit the YB guy with a stick, saying it doesn't count cause he had the wrong size stick and used the wrong grip, and moved at the wrong speed is lame.

No, it's perfectly reasonable since the protocols requested a tap and a wand. You are a loophole monger, aren't you? You could care less for the purpose of the preliminary test.

Cause in case you haven't put it together yet, it was the JREF reprensenative who wasn't following the protocol.

Yep, and?


Wether he didn't understand or didn't consider minor details important doesn't change the simple fact that the JREF rep clearly was present and made no objections to the way the test was run.

They weren't minor details. I guess you think doublecrossing is ok as well. Nothing wrong with the star of the basketball team point-shaving, eh?

 

[MemeHacker]

Are you implying dishonesty on Randi's part here?

No, I think Randi is honest, but everybody makes mistakes and can have minor biases. He did rephrase the protocol slightly in a way that made me think I would like to see the actual protocol that was given to Mr Tri and YB. Mr Tri gives the impression that the protocol was largely informal, seeing what was actually specifically communicated to him would give me better insight into the situation.

On a somewhat related note I think it's interesting to hear actually 54 people have already passed preliminary tests . . .

No, it's perfectly reasonable since the protocols requested a tap and a wand. You are a loophole monger, aren't you?

Funny, I was thinking you were the loophole monger.

Serious question: How hard would you be laughing if instead of using a bamboo wand the JREF guy had an oak wand, plainly visible to the YB before the test started. But then after the guy was tapped by the wand they say it doesn't count cause it's not bamboo? Or say the guy swung slightly harder than a tap and they said it doesn't count because it wasn't a tap?

Maybe Joko Tri ran at the guy with a big swing cause he thought it would be funnier when he hit 'em.

Cause in case you haven't put it together yet, it was the JREF reprensenative who wasn't following the protocol.

Yep, and?

Hmm, we appear to have different ideas of what the JREF represenative is. My view is this:
The test is conducted as an agreed upon procedure between to parties. As the JREF represenative present at the test if things aren't going according to how the JREF wants them the JREF rep is responsible for bring that to the attention of the claimants. If the JREF rep makes no objections it seems reasonable for the claimants to think they are operating with JREF approval.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Serious question: How hard would you be laughing if instead of using a bamboo wand the JREF guy had an oak wand, plainly visible to the YB before the test started. But then after the guy was tapped by the wand they say it doesn't count cause it's not bamboo?

It still wouldn't count, the protocol calls for a bamboo wand.

Or say the guy swung slightly harder than a tap and they said it doesn't count because it wasn't a tap?

Irrelevant question, this particular incident was greatly harder than a tap. Any reasonable person can see that.


Maybe Joko Tri ran at the guy with a big swing cause he thought it would be funnier when he hit 'em.

I don't think crushing a guy's skull is funny at all.


Hmm, we appear to have different ideas of what the JREF represenative is.

That's because you're a stupid believer.

My view is this:
The test is conducted as an agreed upon procedure between to parties. As the JREF represenative present at the test if things aren't going according to how the JREF wants them the JREF rep is responsible for bring that to the attention of the claimants. If the JREF rep makes no objections it seems reasonable for the claimants to think they are operating with JREF approval.

And if the JREF rep is bought off, is a plant, or doesn't perform to standard of protocol, then he no longer qualifies as a JREF rep.