Is the Louisiana flooding Obama's Katrina?

[Trebuchet]

The number one thing I want to see the President do during a disaster is stay the heck away from there. The locals are busy enough without having to deal with the havoc a presidential visit brings to even a normal place. Playing golf on vacation? Fine with me. And no doubt getting daily briefings, too.

 

[sunmaster14]

The number one thing I want to see the President do during a disaster is stay the heck away from there. The locals are busy enough without having to deal with the havoc a presidential visit brings to even a normal place. Playing golf on vacation? Fine with me. And no doubt getting daily briefings, too.

Well, you know what? I agree with you. But then I thought the same thing about Bush during Katrina. I guess that makes me bipartisan.

 

[A'isha]

No mention of levee breaches. No mention of the fact that either FEMA or the Army Corps of Engineers were downplaying the risks. Who to believe? The 2004 version of Ivor van Heerden, or the 2005 version? I'll take the 2004 version. Less hindsight in that one.

Testimony before Congress of Wayne Fairley, Chief of Response Operations for FEMA's Region VI Response and Recovery Division:

Senator LEVIN. OK, at NISAC. This is part of the Department of Homeland Security, and it was performed on August 27, this computer simulation, and it is Exhibit K, and there was an update performed on August 28, and this was delivered to the White House Situation Room at 1:47 on Monday morning, August 29. This NISAC report stated that the potential for severe storm surge to overwhelm Lake Pontchartrain levees is the greatest concern for New Orleans according to the NISAC report. So Homeland Security knew prior to the breach of the levees, at least a number of hours before the breach of the levees, that this was the greatest concern for New Orleans. Do you know where the NISAC folks got that terminology, Mr. Fairley?

Mr. FAIRLEY. No, sir, I do not.

Senator LEVIN. But is it fair to say that in terms of the impact of a severe, catastrophic storm that it was known that the breach of the levees could be one of the impacts?

Mr. FAIRLEY. Yes, sir, I think in all of the planning scenarios and past disasters that we always knew that a breaching or an overtopping of the levee could lead to——

Senator LEVIN. Either one?

Mr. FAIRLEY. Either one.

 

[Cleon]

Well, you know what? I agree with you. But then I thought the same thing about Bush during Katrina. I guess that makes me bipartisan.

Absolutely! They should be delegating that to FEMA, the agency created to handle such disasters.

And that's where the differences come into play.

The person who Obama hired to manage FEMA is a long-time emergency management professional.

The person who Bush hired to manage FEMA was a political crony with no experience in the field, who Bush continued to praise long after his screwups were obvious to all.

 

[kookbreaker]

I should point out that Sunmaster thinks FEMA is solely around to hand out money after a disaster. Not plan or coordinate any kind of disaster relief.

I would advise folks to read that thread. SM's attempts to polish Brownie's legacy are....rather sad.

 

[Cleon]

I should point out that Sunmaster thinks FEMA is solely around to hand out money after a disaster. Not plan or coordinate any kind of disaster relief.

I would advise folks to read that thread. SM's attempts to polish Brownie's legacy are....rather sad.

Edited by jsfisher: 

<snip> Edited for compliance with Rule 12 of the Membership Agreement.

 

[crescent]

During Katrina, Michael Chertoff (Brownie's boss) was interviewed live by NPR. They told him that they had reports of a large group of people trapped at the convention center.

He refused to believe that, pointing out that he could not base his actions on rumors (NPR was telling him that their own reporter was at the scene, holding on another phone line). Here is the transcript, I heard it live myself.

Similarly, Bush's political appointees were still denying that the levees had collapsed even as CNN was showing live video of water flowing through collapsed sections.

They had no idea what was happening, and argued with reporters when reported information conflicted with what little information Bush's staff had. They didn't even seem to be able to have a TV to watch, they were denying things that were being shown on live video.

I don't see any federal officials right now flat out denying that things have happened. Unlike during Katrina, they actually know what is happening. They don't argue with reporters. This response is not perfect, but it is orders of magnitude better that what Bush's team did during Katrina.

If anyone wants to recall what a cluster Katrina was, read this (short) interview, also by NPR: Looting, Snipers Mar New Orleans Evacuation
September 1, 200512:00 AM ET

The DailyKos had a longer transcript of the Seigal/Chertoff interview. Chertoff had no idea that people were at the convention center, despite the fact that the National Guard had spent three days telling people to go there.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

This is utterly false. By the way, the failure of the levee was not expected. Overtopping was expected, but not a breach of the levee.

So the point of this thread then is you going for re-litigating this topic?

 

[sunmaster14]

During Katrina, Michael Chertoff (Brownie's boss) was interviewed live by NPR. They told him that they had reports of a large group of people trapped at the convention center.

He refused to believe that, pointing out that he could not base his actions on rumors (NPR was telling him that their own reporter was at the scene, holding on another phone line). Here is the transcript, I heard it live myself.

Your characterization of Chertoff's reaction is incorrect. He took issue with the claim that the people at the Convention Center were without food and water, not that there were thousands of people stranded there. And, as it turns out, the reports of no food and zero water were almost certainly wrong. If there had been zero water for thousands of people for even as long as a day in that heat and humidity, there would have been huge numbers of deaths. IIRC, there were only one or two deaths at the Convention Center and Superdome combined. It's particularly ironic that you should complain about Chertoff not believing the "rumors" as reported by the media. The media spread countless rumors of dystopian conditions straight out of Cormac McCarthy's The Road. Virtually all of them proved to be false.

Similarly, Bush's political appointees were still denying that the levees had collapsed even as CNN was showing live video of water flowing through collapsed sections.

I don't remember this, but even if true, their ignorance wouldn't have lasted more than an hour or two, and would hardly have been material to the response.

They had no idea what was happening, and argued with reporters when reported information conflicted with what little information Bush's staff had. They didn't even seem to be able to have a TV to watch, they were denying things that were being shown on live video.

The reporters were often wrong. In fact, the rumor-mongering perpetrated by the media during Katrina has inspired comparisons to yellow journalism.

I don't see any federal officials right now flat out denying that things have happened. Unlike during Katrina, they actually know what is happening. They don't argue with reporters. This response is not perfect, but it is orders of magnitude better that what Bush's team did during Katrina.

How would you even know? The media has done very little reporting since the flooding started. As with all things related to human knowledge, it's out of sight = out of mind.

If anyone wants to recall what a cluster Katrina was, read this (short) interview, also by NPR: Looting, Snipers Mar New Orleans Evacuation
September 1, 200512:00 AM ET

The DailyKos had a longer transcript of the Seigal/Chertoff interview. Chertoff had no idea that people were at the convention center, despite the fact that the National Guard had spent three days telling people to go there.

Once again, you are making a claim which is provably false.

 

[sunmaster14]

So the point of this thread then is you going for re-litigating this topic?

Not at all. I wanted to see if anybody else acknowledged the double standard that Obama benefits from. If Bush were still President, he would be absolutely raked over the coals in the media for golfing while tens of thousands of people were suffering.

 

[332nd]

Brownie, the Dude who Bush proudly said was doing a 'heckuva job' whilst ineptitude oozed from his every pore and his aura managed to cause more suffering in Louisiana actually complained that Obama was speaking (and acting) too soon when Sandy was threatening the East Coast shores.

And remember, Brownie thinks his biggest mistake during Katrina was that it was not his fault.

ETA: Oh! And I forgot he doubled down on stupid!

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Not at all. I wanted to see if anybody else acknowledged the double standard that Obama benefits from. If Bush were still President, he would be absolutely raked over the coals in the media for golfing while tens of thousands of people were suffering.

It's only a double standard when you ignore the facts.

 

[Nova Land]

If Bush were still President, he would be absolutely raked over the coals in the media for golfing while tens of thousands of people were suffering.

No. If Bush were still President, he would be absolutely raked over the coals in the media for golfing while tens of thousands of people were suffering and the disaster management efforts were being disastrously mishandled.

Golfing while people somewhere in the world are suffering horribly is bad optics, and comes in for minor criticism. Golfing while people somewhere in the world are suffering horribly, and it's part of your job to make sure they are being taken care of well but you're not doing that, is gross dereliction of duty, and comes in for major criticism.

Obama has been criticized on some left-wing sites for the bad optics of golfing while people are suffering from the Louisiana floods, but for most people that's not what's important.

Bush, in contrast, was widely criticized because the Katrina disaster management was being done terribly and he failed to recognize how badly it was being done and failed to take necessary actions to get the disaster management under better control. For most people, that is important.

If Obama commits the same offense then he would deserve the same kind of criticism. Are you asserting that he has?

Criticism should be doled out in proportion to the offense. To criticize Obama as harshly for bad optics as Bush was criticized for gross mismanagement of a major disaster would be the double standard.

 

[catsmate]

I think the parallels are a little more striking than any of the others. The damage is almost exactly the same as with Katrina.

More comparable to Sandy, unless there's a thousand dead we've missed.


And it's "levee" not "levy". Unless there's a new tax, conscription or war being proposed. Or a dead intern...

 

[catsmate]

The number one thing I want to see the President do during a disaster is stay the heck away from there. The locals are busy enough without having to deal with the havoc a presidential visit brings to even a normal place. Playing golf on vacation? Fine with me. And no doubt getting daily briefings, too.

This.

 

[Stacko]

The number one thing I want to see the President do during a disaster is stay the heck away from there. The locals are busy enough without having to deal with the havoc a presidential visit brings to even a normal place. Playing golf on vacation? Fine with me. And no doubt getting daily briefings, too.

That's what Gov Edwards advised.

Gov. Edwards said on MSNBC last night that he advised Obama not to come so not to divert resources from active rescue effort.​

 

[Foolmewunz]

I thought Sandy was Obama's Katrina.

Must be a bitch to be Dubya, having your sycophants looking, year after year, to not just one fiasco to match the invasion of Iraq (Operation I'll Get 'Em For You, Daddy) but also to match the incompetence of the handling of Katrina.

Suggestion: Wait like thirty years like they did with the attempts to repatriate Nixon's name. Accept that he's a pariah.

 

[CynicalSkeptic]

How many Katrinas are there in a 9/11?

In terms of total lives lost, about 1.6.

 

[sunmaster14]

Thank goodness Donald Trump is bringing attention to this under reported humanitarian crisis. He deserves kudos for taking time out of his busy campaign schedule to help the needy, don't you think?

ETA: From the same link:

The White House insists Obama is not indifferent to the suffering of thousands who were washed out of their homes in the Baton Rouge and Lafayette areas.

Well, that's a relief.

 

[DavidJames]

Thank goodness Donald Trump is bringing attention to this under reported humanitarian crisis. He deserves kudos for taking time out of his busy campaign schedule to help the needy, don't you think?

ETA: From the same link:



Well, that's a relief.

Once again, never let facts get in the way of an ODS rant.

That's what Gov Edwards advised.

Gov. Edwards said on MSNBC last night that he advised Obama not to come so not to divert resources from active rescue effort.​

It's almost like we're dealing with Sean Hannity directly.