Is the current anti-Islamic climate taking us in an ugly direction?

[Eddie Dane]

There seems to be a wave of anti-Islam feelings in the West that is taking a very concrete political form.

Many countries now have political movements that are implicitly or explicitly anti-Islam.

The moderate versions of those movements seem capable of becoming the leading parties in very short time. See PPV in the Netherlands, which is the biggest party now in the polls. In Germany, anti-immigration sentiments are laid bare by the recent success of of Sarrazin's book and a political party in the same spirit is in the making.

In America, where Muslims have been very successful integrating, the mood seems to change (or just become visible).

I just spoke to a (very intelligent and respected) friend who says he's sure that with the growth of the Muslim population, the ant-Islam feelings will increase just as strongly. And as the taboo of addressing the issue of immigration is disappearing, there is room for genuine anti-Islamic political movements. Perhaps not the ones we see now, but who knows what they will evolve into in twenty years.

His prediction: within twenty years the situation will escalate due to involvement of extremists on both sides and Europe will expel a great number of Muslims.

I realize this post will probably be shot down on two points: predicting the future and being a doom-scenario.

Still, I'd like to put it up here and see what the reactions are. Is there a long term potential for a civil war scenario?
as unthinkable as it may seem, the unthinkable sometimes happens. The Lebanese didn't expert their country to fall prey to the violence of the eighties ('we're far to smart and tolerant for that') and my great-grandparents didn't expect to end up in a boxcar with destination Auschwitz.

There is an unspoken unease here. I have a Muslim friend who is thinking about leaving if the current political climate keeps developing the way it is now.


thoughts?

 

[commandlinegamer]

Look at the relatively recent history in the Balkans, also.

I think the media plays a large part in this.

In the UK, hardly a day goes by now without some immigration scaremongering: here's a typical story about eastern european immigrants which one paper has illustrated with a picture of two burka-wearing women.

Obviously a newspapers' job is to sell as many copies as possible. Are they really racist?; I don't know. But yes, I do think they're helping to push things in an ugly direction.

 

[Thunder]

if there was another successful Islamic extremist attack in the USA, there could be a public push to crack down on Mosques and Muslim-American civil rights.

 

[DC]

i know a place where bigotry and propaganda against Muslims led to a restrictions of their freedom of religion. a place where it already is taking an ugly direction.

 

[INRM]

I think this is taking us in a bad direction.

 

[Cleon]

Definitely. Victimizing and marginalizing a religious minority never results in anything good.

 

[JihadJane]

All sorts ugly, reactionary manifestations will accompany the progressive disintegration and collapse of the global economy. Muslims are the demon of the day. There will be others.

In the UK, the demonization of the poor and vulnerable in general is now official government policy.

 

[foxholeatheist]

I had a civilian coworker as me what I thought about Muslim soldiers, of which we see everyday. I said that I didn't have a problem with them. My coworker expressed some distrust of them.

I ask her then 'If this was 1951 would you have a problem with me serving my country?'. She said of course she didn't. 'But I am half Korean and my wife is Korean. I live in Korea for about 15 years. America was fighting a war against North Korea (Police Action, whatever). By your logic, I could not be trusted even though I have served and fought for the US.'

I think I was a little forward about it and I should not have made her feel bad about her own bigotry. After all, she is merely believe what her media is telling her and if Fox News is to be believed, she has ever right to be afraid of the Islamification of the US.

But I often like to make that same comparison. I certainly do not wear any rose colored glasses about it at all, after all, I have shot and killed Muslims. I have seen a mob stone a man for breaking Islamic law and I have lost very dear friends of mine to Islamic terrorists.

I have very complicated emotions about it and I am too simple to state them in a very effective manner. I think we all do.

 

[Eddie Dane]

I had a civilian coworker as me what I thought about Muslim soldiers, of which we see everyday. I said that I didn't have a problem with them. My coworker expressed some distrust of them.

I ask her then 'If this was 1951 would you have a problem with me serving my country?'. She said of course she didn't. 'But I am half Korean and my wife is Korean. I live in Korea for about 15 years. America was fighting a war against North Korea (Police Action, whatever). By your logic, I could not be trusted even though I have served and fought for the US.'

I think I was a little forward about it and I should not have made her feel bad about her own bigotry. After all, she is merely believe what her media is telling her and if Fox News is to be believed, she has ever right to be afraid of the Islamification of the US.

But I often like to make that same comparison. I certainly do not wear any rose colored glasses about it at all, after all, I have shot and killed Muslims. I have seen a mob stone a man for breaking Islamic law and I have lost very dear friends of mine to Islamic terrorists.

I have very complicated emotions about it and I am too simple to state them in a very effective manner. I think we all do.

FHA,

From your recent posts I get the feeling that you have returned from Iraq and are trying to make sense of your experiences.
I'm sorry to hear that you lost friends and were put in a position where you killed a fellow human being.
I have three friends/acquaintances who have been in combat situations, one is an oldie who was in Vietnam, one British and one IDF. I don't dare to ask them if they actually killed.

My feelings are conflicted about it also. I will admit that I have strong philosophical misgivings about religion and about Islam in particular. And I will also admit that I might have been an out-and-out anti-Islam nut if it weren't for the fact that one of my best friends is a Muslim.
Or, to be precise: an atheist of North-African descent. I know his whole family, his parents are devout Muslims. I love them (and their food)

If I had to base my opinion about Muslim immigrants on the media and some of the idiots I meet in the street, I might have found myself at the other side of the debate.

And regarding Muslims in the army: I think it is very much anti-instinctive behavior to give any kind of state sponsored power to a mistrusted minority. We have two prominent Muslim politicians in the Netherlands and the reactions in some internet forums are quite paranoid.
Even though one is secular (and hawt!) and the other keeps his religion to himself.

 

[Lamafarmer]

In Germany, anti-immigration sentiments are laid bare by the recent success of of Sarrazin's book and a political party in the same spirit is in the making.

Which party are you refering to? The one they called "Freiheit" (Freedom)? It'll fail.

I am half Korean and my wife is Korean.

Oh man, let's make kimchi together!
At least send a recipe to me, pleeease!

 

[Eddie Dane]

Which party are you refering to? The one they called "Freiheit" (Freedom)? It'll fail.

Why? If they do what the Dutch Freedom party does, they will get a lot of votes.

Like I said: if elections were held today, they'd be the biggest party.

 

[foxholeatheist]

FHA,

From your recent posts I get the feeling that you have returned from Iraq and are trying to make sense of your experiences.
I'm sorry to hear that you lost friends and were put in a position where you killed a fellow human being.
I have three friends/acquaintances who have been in combat situations, one is an oldie who was in Vietnam, one British and one IDF. I don't dare to ask them if they actually killed.

My feelings are conflicted about it also. I will admit that I have strong philosophical misgivings about religion and about Islam in particular. And I will also admit that I might have been an out-and-out anti-Islam nut if it weren't for the fact that one of my best friends is a Muslim.
Or, to be precise: an atheist of North-African descent. I know his whole family, his parents are devout Muslims. I love them (and their food)

If I had to base my opinion about Muslim immigrants on the media and some of the idiots I meet in the street, I might have found myself at the other side of the debate.

And regarding Muslims in the army: I think it is very much anti-instinctive behavior to give any kind of state sponsored power to a mistrusted minority. We have two prominent Muslim politicians in the Netherlands and the reactions in some internet forums are quite paranoid.
Even though one is secular (and hawt!) and the other keeps his religion to himself.

You know what's funny is that I really try to keep my own experiences in Iraq out of it but it tends to butt itself in to every aspect of my life. It almost seems like the more time I spend at home the more the war affects my life. More complicated ways than simple nightmares, stuff as simple as driving can trigger... Well, not really 'flash backs' but very unpleasant super realistic memories. It's complicated. I recently went to dinner with a few guys from my old unit and it seems to be affecting everyone. Drug and alcohol abuse and domestic violence is through the roof in our old unit. Many of those guys were very young and had no coping mechanism.

I may write something about PTSD sometime in the community. Times like this I wish that I was much better at communicating than I am now.

I try not to mention my experiences because of one simple fact: The fact that I did go there certainly does not give me any additional insight into Islam or social issues like bigotry at all. But it is the only experience of Islam or religious extremism that I really have.

That secular politician indeed is hot. I find Arab women to be very attractive. It's a shame that many adhere to a primitive superstition that holds that in order for them to be good citizens (or even alive in some places) they feel they must obscure everything about them feminine.

I know that Europe faces more Muslim immigration that the US. I have a very good friend from Sweden that showed me some very disgusting anti-immigration posters showing a white sheep kicking a black sheep. Although I cannot read the poster and I am viewing them from an American perspective, I found those to be more intolerant and depressing than the saber-rattling of our US politicians.

I am aware that it is progressive and wonderful to say that 'I treat everyone exactly the same' but I am also well aware of reality and the ways of the world. I believe that equality is the ideal but it certainly is not the reality. I certainly would never support some initiative that would ban Muslims from immigrating or shut down their Mosques but I have to admit, my feelings about Muslims and Islam may not be the most 'enlightened' especially on a forum such as this where most folks are left of center.

 

[Lamafarmer]

Why? If they do what the Dutch Freedom party does, they will get a lot of votes.

I am not familiar with Dutch politics. What exactly is the PVV doing? We have a handful of other parties similar to this Freiheit party, although the Freiheit party has no program yet. They've all pretty much failed. Most of them toil away in obscurity. In Germany we have the 5% barrier, which means you have to get 5% of the votes in elections to have any seat in the first place.

Those with an anti-Islamic undercurrent have as far as I know not managed to get even close to this number on any significant level. I'm thinking of the pro- parties; be it pro-Köln or pro-NRW. Former is only in the city council of Cologne with 5 seats, or 5,3%.

Like I said: if elections were held today, they'd be the biggest party.

Which one, the PVV?

I will admit that I have strong philosophical misgivings about religion and about Islam in particular. And I will also admit that I might have been an out-and-out anti-Islam nut if it weren't for the fact that one of my best friends is a Muslim.

By the way, shouldn't you rather be talking about anti-Muslim parties in the guise of anti-Islam?

 

[Eddie Dane]

I am not familiar with Dutch politics. What exactly is the PVV doing? We have a handful of other parties similar to this Freiheit party, although the Freiheit party has no program yet. They've all pretty much failed. Most of them toil away in obscurity. In Germany we have the 5% barrier, meaning you have to get 5% of the votes in elections to have any seat in the first place.

Those with an anti-Islamic undercurrent have as far as I know not managed to get even close to this number on any significant level. I'm thinking of the pro- parties; be it pro-Köln or pro-NRW. Former is only in the city council of Cologne with 5 seats, or 5,3%.



Which one, the PVV?



By the way, shouldn't you rather be talking about anti-Muslim parties in the guise of anti-Islam?

Yes, the Dutch PVV.

Here's the success formula:

Be socially conservative.
Take your economic policies from the socialist party.
Communicate law and order
Make shocking statements (airplay)
Make borderline racist statements (airplay)

Do you think that they will fail because they say things that are easily shot down by anyone with a mediocre intelligence?
Think again. Geert Wilders just uses that as a PR tool. The "liberal elite" loves to pick apart all the logical contradictions in his speeches. This is simply airplay to the Freedom party. And the voters think that it looks like sour grapes. Plus the populists use it to claim that the "liberal media" is biased against them.

Anti-Muslim? That is probably how it plays out and good number of their voters are probably racist.

 

[Lamafarmer]

No, I think they will fail because they simply don't get enough votes here. We have enough other alternatives and I'd argue that Germans tend to throw their lot in with parties that have more substance, even if it means their xenophobia is not satisfied.

 

[Eddie Dane]

No, I think they will fail because they simply don't get enough votes here. We have enough other alternatives and I'd argue that Germans tend to throw their lot in with parties that have more substance, even if it means their xenophobia is not satisfied.

Well, I hope you're right.

But I suspect that they will be successful. I guess we'll see.

Please note that I'm not talking about a Nazi party or even a racist party.
I'm talking about right winged populism.

 

[Infoexcavator]

Atheists say that banning Christianity would help the world, I don't see why we need muslim throwbacks either.

 

[Lamafarmer]

Well, I hope you're right.

But I suspect that they will be successful. I guess we'll see.

When you say "they", who exactly are you talking about? The founders of Freiheit are mainstream rejects. I predict they'll have their insignificant following and that will be it.

Please note that I'm not talking about a Nazi party or even a racist party.
I'm talking about right winged populism.

Do the Republikaner cover this in your opinion? They've also failed.

 

[Eddie Dane]

When you say "they", who exactly are you talking about? The founders of Freiheit are mainstream rejects. I predict they'll have their insignificant following and that will be it.

I mean right wing populists. Either the newly founded Freedom party, or another incarnation in case the Freedom party cocks up.

Do the Republikaner cover this in your opinion? They've also failed.

I'm not familiar with them or their political program.

 

[Lamafarmer]

Had only a glance, maybe it sheds some light on them though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republikaner
Are you able to read German? http://www.rep.de/