Is the challenge dead?

[illuminatedwax]

I had heard that the JREF cancelled the Million Dollar prize in 2010, but upon researching it today, it was announced at TAM that it would in fact continue. And I also heard that it's even easier to apply now. However, it looks like the forum here at least is dead (not to mention that some of the site is a couple years or more out of date) ...is there a new log of applicants someplace? Is there another place that volunteers can sign up to help with it? Or is it all being done secretly behind closed doors at the JREF?

 

[wardenclyffe]

Well, there was a test at this year's TAM, but you are right, this subforum is pretty quiet. Some threads have started here and then they get moved to the General Skepticism subforum when it becomes clear that the claimant is not really applying for the MDC.

Although it was announced that it would become easier to apply for the prize, I've seen no real movement in that direction. Perhaps someone else has.

Meanwhile, the MDC is no longer the biggest prize available. The Belgian Skeptics are offering a million Euro prize: http://skepp.be/en/sisyphus-prize-1000000-euro

Oh, and I think all the negotiations with the applicant from TAM were done behinde closed doors (which is also true of the previous tests [or demonstrations] at previous TAMs).

Ward

 

[illuminatedwax]

Thanks for the info! I think what made the challenge "easier" to apply for was that a YouTube video demonstrating your claim would suffice for an application. It's a shame that a log of these things isn't kept anymore; it was great fun to watch and/or help devise scientifically acceptable experiments for these claims, as well as a good thought exercise for doing science itself.

Do you know if the Belgian Skeptics are transparent about their applicants and the subsequent tests (if any)?

 

[wardenclyffe]

I don't know how the Belgian test works. It was just elevated to a million Euros in February.

Where do you live? There might be a local group that offers a prize and you could get hands-on experience rather than just watching from a distance from this forum.

Ward

 

[Klaymore]

I'm on the same page as you, Illuminated; the thing that first brought me to the site was the challenge applications. Sadly, though, Ward's right about the typical arc of most "applications": The applicant jumps into the forum and says he has some kind of skill that's going to demonstrate soon, and that he's in negotiations to set up a test. Everyone's nice to him and asks him polite questions about his skill, which sounds very specific at first, but as the questions continue becomes more and more murky. Negotiations either continue or don't (because JREF doesn't post the discussions anymore) for awhile, and no one really knows what's going on. This continues for maybe a year or so, and then things just kind of peter out.

I thought it was a mistake when the JREF instituted their new rules for applicants (media presence, etc.), because it just makes it tougher to apply, and the more applicants and tests being run, the better the purpose of the prize is being served. It's sweet, though, to see that there's now another huge prize out there, because it makes it tougher for the many high-profile fakes like Uri Geller and Sylvia Browne to use the old "There is no Million Dollar" excuse. They'll still never sit still for a real test, but the more such prizes there are out there the harder it becomes for them to deny reality.

 

[Cainkane1]

I've of the opinion no ones going to win any money on paranormal exhibits.

 

[Olowkow]

.......

I thought it was a mistake when the JREF instituted their new rules for applicants (media presence, etc.), because it just makes it tougher to apply, and the more applicants and tests being run, the better the purpose of the prize is being served.
...

Why would the media presence be an impediment to an applicant? Of course opponents of the MDC will claim this, but if someone has an interesting supernatural ability, some newspaper or magazine somewhere would surely find this noteworthy enough to write something about them, or they could at least have a YouTube video posted.

The problem in opening the MDC up to everyone who believes they are special arises when a series of mentally ill people pester the JREF staff for attention with claims and questions but never seem to be able to actually fill out an application or settle on one claim. It is not only a waste of the staff's time, but it is also potentially dangerously encouraging or enabling a person suffering with loss of contact with reality or obsessive compulsive types.

 

[Cleon]

I don't think the challenge is "dead," but by all appearances it's not a priority for the JREF at the moment, and they're letting the IIG challenge function as a de facto "first round" of testing.

This way, by the time the challenge gets to the JREF, the mentally ill, the jokesters, and the honestly self-deluded have been weeded out. The JREF doesn't wind up spending its time hooking up a webcam aimed at Jeff Wagg's crotch because some poor woman in Cleveland honestly believed she could make him pee by praying for it*. Tests like that have their place, but I can see the wisdom in letting local/regional volunteers handle it, rather than an organization with a staff that can be counted on one hand.


* This really happened.

 

[MinnesotaBrant]

As likely as those rioting garment working in Bangladesh getting their wages doubled. Obviously its possible, but the powers that be won't allow it.

As likely as those striking fast food workers in 7 US cities getting their wages doubled. Its possible, but the powers that be wont allow it.

As likely as me walking away with money from a blackjack table. Its possible but the powers that be wont allow it.

 

[steenkh]

As likely as those rioting garment working in Bangladesh getting their wages doubled. Obviously its possible, but the powers that be won't allow it.

What powers that be will not allow a successful spoon bender to walk away with the money?

 

[RemieV]

I don't think the challenge is "dead," but by all appearances it's not a priority for the JREF at the moment, and they're letting the IIG challenge function as a de facto "first round" of testing.

This way, by the time the challenge gets to the JREF, the mentally ill, the jokesters, and the honestly self-deluded have been weeded out. The JREF doesn't wind up spending its time hooking up a webcam aimed at Jeff Wagg's crotch because some poor woman in Cleveland honestly believed she could make him pee by praying for it*. Tests like that have their place, but I can see the wisdom in letting local/regional volunteers handle it, rather than an organization with a staff that can be counted on one hand.


* This really happened.

Hey man, she actually had media presence. She would fit the qualifications even now.

 

[xtifr]

Hey man, she actually had media presence. She would fit the qualifications even now.

Really? I'd have to say that that pretty much kills any claims anyone might want to make that the current requirements are too high of a bar!

 

[RemieV]

Really? I'd have to say that that pretty much kills any claims anyone might want to make that the current requirements are too high of a bar!

Yes. When she first applied, she didn't have media presence, and my advice to her was to showcase her ability for someone in the media. She got an article written about her in a newspaper because of that, leading us to question whether we should suggest getting media coverage to anyone at all...

 

[wardenclyffe]

Did she also have academic affidavits?

Ward

 

[RemieV]

Did she also have academic affidavits?

Ward

Don't remember. It's been quite a long time. I would imagine so. Those seemed incredibly easy to get.

 

[Klaymore]

Why would the media presence be an impediment to an applicant?

I don't know how much of an impediment it is, but it's clearly an impediment, and I presume specifically designed as such. If JREF is receiving so many applications that they can't keep up, then perhaps such an impediment is warranted. This doesn't seem to be the case, given that the last challenge application is from 2009.

The problem in opening the MDC up to everyone who believes they are special arises when a series of mentally ill people pester the JREF staff for attention with claims and questions but never seem to be able to actually fill out an application or settle on one claim.

Indeed, and that's a factor with which I sympathize. I've often commented on the regular approach pattern for new claimants: They come on the site acting all sweet-as-pie, going "Hey, I have this amazing ability and I'm going to apply for the challenge and can you guys help me devise a test?" Then they BS around for about a year or so, then they disappear.

However, once again it goes back to the nature and purpose of the JREF challenge. My understanding isn't that Randi is attempting to discover supernatural phenomena, but rather to run tests of various paranormal claims under controlled circumstances that will illustrate to rational observers the frivolity of said claims.

Anyone who claims paranormal powers is--upon information and belief--either delusional, a cynical fraud, or some combination thereof. The frauds--Sylvia Browne, Uri Geller, et al--are the ones most likely to have a "media presence," and at the same time the least likely to sit still for the challenge. They know that they would fail a controlled test, and are able to make millions without submitting to one. That just leaves the nut-jobs. If JREF is going to test people, those people are going to be deluded. If testing the deluded is unethical, then the JREF should cease and desist entirely. The current policy seems damned by half-measures.

 

[Klaymore]

And thanks, Cleon, for posting the IIG link. I hadn't heard of that group before, and it appears that they actually run a couple of tests a year (although there are none yet posted for 2013). And yeah, it looks like it's a years-long grind in most cases for them too, with failed claimants often citing some form of "psychic interference" or "negative skeptic energy," just like those the JREF used to test.

 

[xtifr]

If testing the deluded is unethical

Unethical? Who says it's unethical? It's a giant waste of everyone's time, and utterly pointless, but I don't see anything unethical about it. Heck, it's potentially a valuable learning experience for at least some of the deluded. But there are dozens of smaller challenges that can (and do) fill in the gap there.

 

[steenkh]

This doesn't seem to be the case, given that the last challenge application is from 2009.

No, the JREF has stopped publishing the claims and the tests. Tests have been conducted every year, and at the latest TAMs some tests have been conducted in public.

 

[IXP]

I miss the days when Kramer was in charge. The Challenge was alive and well back then, and provided much entertainment.

IXP