Is the Bible Anti-Satanist Propaganda?

[gumboot]

It has occurred to me that the Bible demonises Satan, and praises God. I'm wondering if any of this is valid, or if maybe Christians the world over have fallen for the greatest piece of propaganda in the history of time itself. Could God be the bad guy?

Well, let's look at that notion.

Firstly, why is Satan the bad guy? Well the generally accepted version of events is that Satan (known at the time as Lucifer) was chief amongst the worshippers of God, and was deeply involved in the creation of the universe - specifically the creation of the Garden of Eden.

God then created man and gave the entire world to Man to look after, also giving him free will.

Lucifer took exception to this - he didn't have the benefit of free will and didn't see why man should get to fiddle with the masterpiece that he had helped build.

Rebellion ensued. Those demanding equal rights for Angels (1/3 of the host of heaven by all accounts) were brutally crushed by the remaining Angels, and Lucifer and his friends were cast out of heaven - forcing them to suffer the eternal anguish of being removed from God's presence.

Despite this set back Lucifer remained a champion for truth and justice, and when God lied to Adam and Eve about the Tree of Life he set the record straight. For this he was further punished.

So that's where it all begins. This isn't looking good for God. We know the Bible was written by God and his agents, and his own works openly admit that he lied to us about the Tree of Life. So we should be very wary of actually believing all of the blatant hate rhetoric being spewed about Lucifer, and particular the polarising rhetoric of "good" and "evil". Frankly he's starting to sound like George Bush.

Now...

Let's get down to action, because action speaks louder than words.

Lucifer doesn't feature much in the Bible, but when he does, his main effort seems to be converting die hard God-lovers to his cause of equality and freedom. He doesn't use violence, but instead just talks. Even when tackling the greatest God-lover of all - Jesus himself - Satan is respectful and polite.

The only time Satan actually does anything really mean in the Bible is when he has a crack at Job, and he only does that after God tells him to.

And then there's God...

God destroys cities. God floods the world. God empowers his follows to conduct Wars of Aggression, employ Weapons of Mass Destruction on civilians, and commit acts of genocide and ethnic clensing. God encourages the abuse, killing, torture and rape of innocent defeated civilians. God encourages his followers to kill their own family members to fuel his own ego. God kills his own son.

So, it has to be asked...

Who's really the bad guy here?

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Did somebody leave the Milton laying about unattended again?

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Did somebody leave the Milton laying about unattended again?

Given his current age he needs an attendent 24-hours a day and should never be left alone.

I "took" Pilgrim's Progress in school when I was about 10. I found it very confusing then -- and still do. No wait. That was by John Bunyan. Never mind.

 

[gumboot]

Did somebody leave the Milton laying about unattended again?

I've never read Milton. Is he any good?

 

[Wides]

ok gumboot, i have to admit that i've enjoyed most of your posts in my short time here. However, there was this girl that i used to hang out with that had a huge rant on how Satan and Lucifer are two different entities. If i'm not mistaken, Satan (a lowly choir boy) convinces Lucifer (the second created) to revolt against god. Mind you this is all second hand, and the only reference material i could find was "Reign in Hell" by Steven Brust.

 

[truethat]

Actually I've had this conversation for years.

If you read Genesis you see that God lied to Adam and Eve and Satan told the truth.

Read and see:

Genesis 1:31
God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

Genesis 2:15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."


1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.


So basically God murdered them for disobeying him. He lied when he suggested that to touch of the tree would cause them to die. This is not what causes them to die, HE is what causes them to die by forbidding them to eat from the tree of life.

However the serpent tells them exactly what God says later.


So the serpent is telling the truth and God is a murdering liar. Additionally the first line shows that EVERYTHING God made was Good. THe only thing that was not Good in the Garden of Eden was the only thing that God didn't make..........himself.

 

[gumboot]

ok gumboot, i have to admit that i've enjoyed most of your posts in my short time here. However, there was this girl that i used to hang out with that had a huge rant on how Satan and Lucifer are two different entities. If i'm not mistaken, Satan (a lowly choir boy) convinces Lucifer (the second created) to revolt against god. Mind you this is all second hand, and the only reference material i could find was "Reign in Hell" by Steven Brust.

Yes that's quite true, it's certainly not universally accepted that Lucifer and Satan are one and the same. Likewise the reason for Lucifer's expulsion varies - for example one account is that Lucifer refused to bow down to man because he considered himself superior, but another is that Lucifer loved God so much he could not bring himself to worship anyone other than God.

I hope it was clear that a lot of my post is rather tongue-in-cheek even if the underlying point I'm trying to make is serious.

 

[gumboot]

It's quite a bit into the video but...



ETA. I think it has some naughty words in it...

 

[kmortis]

ok gumboot, i have to admit that i've enjoyed most of your posts in my short time here. However, there was this girl that i used to hang out with that had a huge rant on how Satan and Lucifer are two different entities. If i'm not mistaken, Satan (a lowly choir boy) convinces Lucifer (the second created) to revolt against god. Mind you this is all second hand, and the only reference material i could find was "Reign in Hell" by Steven Brust.

Um..yes and no. It all depends on if you're sticking strictly to the Bible as the source for the anti-hero or if you include Jewish and/or Christian mythology to go along with it.

Satan is mentioned a few times in the OT, usually as God's prosecuting attorney. you see him in this role in Job, and he's mentioned in I Samuel (or was it I Chronicles...I forget) tempting the king to take census.

Lucifer is mentioned once, in Isaiah. Most scholars, both Jewish and Christian, take this passage as an admonition against the King of Babylon...which is who the passage is actually addressing, so it's not that far of a leap.

Like this, they are two different beings. VERY different. As the Christian mythos takes dominance over the Jewish, you see the two melding into the Big Nasty Guy With Red Skin And Horns^tm. That's ok, it's their theology, they can do with it as they please.

Brusts book is entertaining, BTW. As is The Devil's Apocrypha, by John diVito.

Of course, who Satan REALLY is is only of importance to theists and poets, of which I am neither, although I will admit that I think that he got a short shrift. He only ever played his role and for that he was...ahem...demonized.

 

[gumboot]

Don't forget Satan/Lucifer's role in Islamic teachings... that's another source for different versions.

 

[Nosaj]

gumboot,

Lucifer took exception to this - he didn't have the benefit of free will and didn't see why man should get to fiddle with the masterpiece that he had helped build.

If Lucifer did not have the benefit of free will, then how was Lucifer able to take exception to G_d creating Man/giving Man free will and instigate an epic rebellion?

Jason

 

[Wides]

gumboot,



If Lucifer did not have the benefit of free will, then how was Lucifer able to take exception to G_d creating Man/giving Man free will and instigate an epic rebellion?

Jason

see i was under the idea that Lucifer loved humans, and god's indifference to their pain and suffering is what turned him.

 

[Mashuna]

gumboot,



If Lucifer did not have the benefit of free will, then how was Lucifer able to take exception to G_d creating Man/giving Man free will and instigate an epic rebellion?

Jason

If Lucifer didn't have free will, God must have been behind the whole thing.

 

[gumboot]

gumboot,

If Lucifer did not have the benefit of free will, then how was Lucifer able to take exception to G_d creating Man/giving Man free will and instigate an epic rebellion?

Jason

I've always wondered that. There's the "God planned it" scenario described by Mashuna. Another interpretation I've heard is that it's not actually "free will" but "ability to not love God" or some such. Angels apparently don't have that option. They have to love God. They're like the ultimate drug addict.

Humans, on the other hand, could take it or leave it.

 

[The Man]

I've never read Milton. Is he any good?

Well, check out the quote from “Paradise Regained” in my signatures. I find it very applicable to my experiences on this forum. Although it specifically applies to Saul, seeking his fathers lost asses, then being anointed by the prophet Samuel as the first king of Israel. Milton, in my opinion, is long winded and obtuse, I have personally found little interest in his works.

see i was under the idea that Lucifer loved humans, and god's indifference to their pain and suffering is what turned him.

If I remember correctly Lucifer was the beloved of God until he created man and then the green monster of jealousy came out (then became a red monster). Hopefully someone will correct me if I am mistaken.

Don't forget Satan/Lucifer's role in Islamic teachings... that's another source for different versions.

Isn’t that where Lucifer is more like the adversarial or the prosecuting attorney looking to condemn you in the court of judgment and not so much the provider of temptation as in the Judeo-Christian version. Again I could be remembering wrong.

 

[Jarom]

The thread title is extremely misleading, as you're referring to religious doctrine that long postdates Genesis. Chapter 3 of Genesis, which tells the story of the serpent, makes no reference to any sort of demon, devil, Satan, or Lucifer. Indeed, if you read it, it's clearly the story of "Why the Serpent Has to Crawl and Bites People, " which is a great story if you're in a prehistoric tribe and that's the sort of thing you'd like to explain.

The idea that the serpent was Satan, or even that there is a semi-divine being opposed to God is found nowhere in the Old Testament. The closest you'll get is Job, and even then the antagonist is working for God and acting under his direction and with his permission. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes a serpent is just a serpent.

 

[gumboot]

Well, check out the quote from “Paradise Regained” in my signatures. I find it very applicable to my experiences on this forum. Although it specifically applies to Saul, seeking his fathers lost asses, then being anointed by the prophet Samuel as the first king of Israel. Milton, in my opinion, is long winded and obtuse, I have personally found little interest in his works.

I'll give it a miss.

If I remember correctly Lucifer was the beloved of God until he created man and then the green monster of jealousy came out (then became a red monster). Hopefully someone will correct me if I am mistaken.

You're not mistaken. That is indeed one version. I'm actually quite impressed with just how many there are.

Isn’t that where Lucifer is more like the adversarial or the prosecuting attorney looking to condemn you in the court of judgment and not so much the provider of temptation as in the Judeo-Christian version. Again I could be remembering wrong.

Well I've actually heard that argument made for Satan in the Bible itself. I wouldn't be surprised if there's multiple versions and interpretations of the Islamic angle on things, but the Islamic one I am familiar with is that Lucifer loved God more than any of the other angels did, and when God ordered the angels to worship mankind Lucifer was incapable of doing it due to his love of God. The argument is that Lucifer only judged the creation of man on his outside physical appearance and failed to see the inner holiness that was God.

Or something.

 

[The Man]

I'll give it a miss.

Ok, but if you keep missing Milton you will never form your own opinion as to whether he is “good” or not.

You're not mistaken. That is indeed one version. I'm actually quite impressed with just how many there are.

Thanks, it is good to know that my memory is sometimes what I remember it to be.

Well I've actually heard that argument made for Satan in the Bible itself. I wouldn't be surprised if there's multiple versions and interpretations of the Islamic angle on things, but the Islamic one I am familiar with is that Lucifer loved God more than any of the other angels did, and when God ordered the angels to worship mankind Lucifer was incapable of doing it due to his love of God. The argument is that Lucifer only judged the creation of man on his outside physical appearance and failed to see the inner holiness that was God.

Or something.

You are right, after I wrote it and thought about it, I came to the realization that it was more the Judeo-Christian application. I think you are correct in the worshiping of man aspect, but perhaps not on the physical appearance aspect. I think it was the capability of man not to worship God (considered a defect) that Lucifer opposed, although I am most likely mistaken again.

 

[gumboot]

I think it was the capability of man not to worship God (considered a defect) that Lucifer opposed, although I am most likely mistaken again.

Yup that's another version.

I told you there were a lot.

 

[The Man]

Yup that's another version.

I told you there were a lot.

So, how many versions do you know (some links would be helpful) or what exactly is your question. If you have no specific one that is fine with me, I enjoy discussing things just to find out what other people think or know (or like me think they know). Propaganda against Satan? Well with the Gideons I would say that the “press” and current media is more in favor of your assertion. I surmise that Satan just needs a better press agent, go figure he should have the best already, I guess he just doesn’t pay them enough.