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Is Separation Real? Is Objectivity Real?

I Robot said:
If it's all an illusion, why does it matter if some things predict the behaviour of the illusion? Who cares?

I'm not saying anything for which there is observable, demonstrable evidence is an illusion.

I'm saying the psychological self is an illusion.

IR



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An illusion, a simulation, an emergent property of the brain doing brain stuff, sure, why not? Our 'selves' aren't permanent, unchanging, or even continuous. It's a very convincing illusion, but that doesn't seem to have a bearing on whether or not the physical processes underlying it are real.
I Robot said:
I'm saying there's no hard evidence for the existence of an observer. Is it still confusing?

IR

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If everyone is an illusion, observation is impossible and we're all not here, then proving anything at all is impossible. Heck, you're not even asking this question if that's true.

ETA: One could argue that the concept of separation is an illusion, just like the self. It's a heuristic, a handy mental shortcut we use to order the world around us. Sure, everything is interconnected and part of the same universe, but the ability to discriminate is a very important attribute for living creatures as we know them. If we couldn't discern a bush from a predator from a fire from our children, but just saw an undulating seamless universe stretching into infinity, we wouldn't have survived.
 
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Porpoise of Life said:
An illusion, a simulation, an emergent property of the brain doing brain stuff, sure, why not? Our 'selves' aren't permanent, unchanging, or even continuous. It's a very convincing illusion, but that doesn't seem to have a bearing on whether or not the physical processes underlying it are real.
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The physical processes are real. The sense of there being a psychological self is 100% illusion.

This is materialism.

If everyone is an illusion, observation is impossible
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No. Observation is unaffected. This is materialism.

IR




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I Robot said:
The physical processes are real. The sense of there being a psychological self is 100% illusion.

This is materialism.



No. Observation is unaffected. This is materialism.

IR




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If there is no observer, there can be no observation.
And if, as you say, both the material world and observation do exist, why would it matter whether or not the mental model the observer has created of itself is perfect?
 
Porpoise of Life said:
If there is no observer, there can be no observation.
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No. There is observation. There is no evidence for an observer. That's science. That's a position based on demonstrable fact.


why would it matter whether or not the mental model the observer has created of itself is perfect?
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There's no evidence for an observer, as in a limited entity which observes.

The brain creates the illusion that it has a personal self. It does this for no one.

IR

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Porpoise of Life said:
ETA: One could argue that the concept of separation is an illusion, just like the self.
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The concept is real. It's just not happening to anyone.

Sure, everything is interconnected and part of the same universe, but the ability to discriminate is a very important attribute for living creatures as we know them. If we couldn't discern a bush from a predator from a fire from our children, but just saw an undulating seamless universe stretching into infinity, we wouldn't have survived.
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Yes. But a creature born from natural selection like this needs guts to be honest. Especially when the truth is at odds with how it's been programmed to behave.

Do you have the courage? Or do you prefer to dwell in what the evolutionary psychologists call Instinct Blindness?

IR



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I Robot said:
I'm saying there's no hard evidence for the existence of an observer. Is it still confusing?

IR

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It's more than confusing, it's very close to gibberish. Please explain using all the words you know exactly what it is you are talking about.
 
poblob14 said:
Well, let's see.

This year, Bobby Bonilla is getting paid over one million dollars for playing baseball, despite the fact that Bonilla has not played baseball since 2001. I, on the other hand, am not getting paid one million dollars for anything, nor have I ever played baseball.

This suggests to me that Bonilla and I are two different people.

What am I doing wrong?
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Not getting paid a million dollars for not playing baseball?
 
Hmmmm... I can only conclude from this that God must exist for us to be observed and therefore "real".
 
I Robot said:
Appear, yes. But not to anybody.

A few hours in, no one has yet produced any scientific evidence that there is any observer experiencing this apparent separation.

IR

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So what exactly is posting on the forum?

How does your body interact with the device you use to post?
 
I Robot said:
If it's all an illusion, why does it matter if some things predict the behaviour of the illusion? Who cares?

I'm not saying anything for which there is observable, demonstrable evidence is an illusion.

I'm saying the psychological self is an illusion.

IR



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Do you preserve your body?

That should appear to be real.

Or are you one of those who walks in front of cars?
 
I Robot said:
The physical processes are real. The sense of there being a psychological self is 100% illusion.

This is materialism.



No. Observation is unaffected. This is materialism.

IR




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Under materialism the body is real, and has perceptions modeled from the sensations.

I think you are arguing some strawman
 
I Robot said:
No. There is observation. There is no evidence for an observer. That's science. That's a position based on demonstrable fact.




There's no evidence for an observer, as in a limited entity which observes.

The brain creates the illusion that it has a personal self. It does this for no one.

IR

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There is no atman, there is a body, that is what the perceptions are generated by.
 
I Robot said:
The concept is real. It's just not happening to anyone.
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It appears to happen for individual bodies
Yes. But a creature born from natural selection like this needs guts to be honest. Especially when the truth is at odds with how it's been programmed to behave.

Do you have the courage? Or do you prefer to dwell in what the evolutionary psychologists call Instinct Blindness?

IR



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I can hardly wait for that definition, oh please source your 'Instinct Blindness' and then cite how humans have instincts.
 
I Robot said:
No. There is observation. There is no evidence for an observer. That's science. That's a position based on demonstrable fact.




There's no evidence for an observer, as in a limited entity which observes.

The brain creates the illusion that it has a personal self. It does this for no one.

IR

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Since there are on observers, ...

Then no one is observing this thread, and all of the responses herein are made by non-observing observers.

Makes perfect sense, eh?
 
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