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Merged Is Scientism Really Justified?

Mathematical truths can be empirically observed. If I have one apple and I put down another apple next to it, I can observe that there are two apples. 1 + 1 = 2, empirically.
This only works if you already have the concept of "one", and "two" as the whole number that comes after "one". It is otherwise impossible for you to make this observation.
 
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This only works if you already have the concept of "one", and "two" as the whole number that comes after "one". It is otherwise impossible for you to make this observation.

So? The empirical observation "ripe lemons taste sour" only works if you have the concept of what lemons are (and what things are not lemons) and the concept of what sour tastes like. You can play this game with any claim or observation whatsoever.
 
That there is such a thing as a concept is kind of the point. They are distinct from percepts, and percepts are insufficient by themselves to justify any knowledge claim.

You can play this game with any claim or observation whatsoever.
It's not so much a game as a response to a claim.

We should be empiricists, but not to the degree that we render ourselves incapable of thought. That way lies madness.
 
In what capacity such knowledge can be said to exist is not a question that makes me want to don my metaphysics hat. It's an idea. It exists as an idea. If someone wants to come up with a mathematical proof for the existence of gods and ghosts, then I'll entertain it.
I'd go a step further and say that once you've got a set of foundations that work for you, might as well give the metaphysics hat to Good Will. The only thing that tends to sway people after that is basically down to vibes.

But that also means that we should strive to avoid tribalism about this stuff. If somebody wants to be an idealist...well, as long as they aren't doing it to try to make extremely woolly claims about science, it makes no difference to me.
 
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Why is using AI in a skepticism forum dishonest?

1) Because doing so without explicit attribution in each post is against the rules. Breaking the rules is dishonest.
2) Because presenting AI-generated content as your own is plagiarism. Plagiarism is dishonest.
3) Because you specifically promised to stop doing so. Breaking promises is dishonest.
4) Because honesty requires speaking your own mind. Saying what *you* mean and meaning what *you* say. Failing to do this, and instead simply repeating what a machine says without input from your own thought, is dishonest.
 
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This isn't some esoteric point, and I'm surprised that someone who calls Goedel, Escher, Bach all you need to know about propositional logic would even attempt this argument. Hofstadter is definitely not an "all knowledge is a posteriori" guy.
No, he's not. But it is true that the book contains within it a comprehensive breakdown of propositional logic, which if you will observe, is all that I have claimed.

Regardless, I can empirically demonstrate the concept of "one" by putting a single apple on the table. I can demonstrate that "two" is the successor to "one" by putting a second apple down next to it. Thus is this propositional axiom demonstrated empirically. We can then extrapolate the rest of mathematics according to the Principia Mathematica, all based on the empirical foundation of putting one apple down, then adding a second.
 
Truths that you can look up in a dictionary aren't the kind of truth that @Gubiosak is talking about.
He is talking about mathematics and other kinds of axiomatic truths. Logical proofs that are true according to some arbitrary rule set, not because of empirical observation. To me it's all the same thing, but he makes a distinction.

He may also be referring to paranormal or supernatural phenomena, but if so he's been very careful not to say that quiet part out loud.
 
The analytic tradition is a bit more complicated than that, but I agree that the Goob's AI is trying to ask us whether synthetic a priori truths exist.

That's a controversial topic, but the best possible answer is that mathematics seems to sometimes be able to generate new synthetic a priori knowledge independent of actually observing it in the world.
There are many examples of that, but here's one of the more famous.

In 1938, Kurt Gödel proved ZFC is consistent if and only if ZF is consistent. In 1963, Paul Cohen proved ZF¬C is consistent if and only if ZF is consistent. Both of those proofs proceeded by describing the mathematical construction of a specific model.

(ZF is Zermelo-Frankel set theory, whose axioms are the most commonly accepted foundation for mathematics. ZFC is ZF plus the axiom of choice. ZF¬C is ZF plus the negation of the axiom of choice.)

The bottom line is that we know the axiom of choice is independent of the set-theoretic axioms universally accepted by logicians and mathematicians.

That synthetic a priori knowledge is an example of mathematical truth that cannot be empirically observed.

Mathematical truths can be empirically observed. If I have one apple and I put down another apple next to it, I can observe that there are two apples. 1 + 1 = 2, empirically.
 
Can believing exclusively in non-factual truths (such as ethical, logical, or existential principles) be harmful? What are the risks and limitations of this mindset?
Well, 150 years ago my family were Indian fighters. If a local tribe went hostile the logical and ethical move was to kill them all. 150 years later this is no longer a logical nor ethical move.

What your AI fails to understand is that "Truth" is often relative. And in its worst form truth justifies all kinds of monsterous acts. The S.S. had a truth which led to a solution that was cold-bloodedly logical in its scope, and execution. It wasn't genocide to them, the S.S. was saving the world. That was their truth.

Do you see the obvious problem yet?
 
He is talking about mathematics and other kinds of axiomatic truths. Logical proofs that are true according to some arbitrary rule set, not because of empirical observation. To me it's all the same thing, but he makes a distinction.
It's a distinction most commonly argued by people who want to wedge a specific belief into the perceived gap between empirical science and the body of all knowledge.

He may also be referring to paranormal or supernatural phenomena, but if so he's been very careful not to say that quiet part out loud.
His rant in Portuguese (now banished to the hall of shame) explicitly mentioned rhetoric against "pseudo-skeptics" for improperly rejecting claims on an ideological basis rather than for good rational reasons. Again, whether he intends to argue a paranormal claim or not, he is quoting paranormal-coded rhetoric almost verbatim. And since that latest rant was in his native language, the claim that he can't know what kind of English is being produced becoemes irrelevant. All that's left for him to stand on is the accepted conclusion that the post was generated by AI in Portuguese, and he may yet not understand that his AI is expressly pulling from paranormal-coded arguments in whatever language.
 
It's a distinction most commonly argued by people who want to wedge a specific belief into the perceived gap between empirical science and the body of all knowledge.


His rant in Portuguese (now banished to the hall of shame) explicitly mentioned rhetoric against "pseudo-skeptics" for improperly rejecting claims on an ideological basis rather than for good rational reasons. Again, whether he intends to argue a paranormal claim or not, he is quoting paranormal-coded rhetoric almost verbatim. And since that latest rant was in his native language, the claim that he can't know what kind of English is being produced becoemes irrelevant. All that's left for him to stand on is the accepted conclusion that the post was generated by AI in Portuguese, and he may yet not understand that his AI is expressly pulling from paranormal-coded arguments in whatever language.
I wouldn't be surprised if his AI is giving him paranormal-coded answers because he's giving it paranormal-coded questions.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if his AI is giving him paranormal-coded answers because he's giving it paranormal-coded questions.
...which is why it's sensible that our rules require disclosing the AI prompts. My experience with LLMs is that it's pretty easy to get them to stumble into coded language even when the prompt does not telegraph it. Inasmuch as the OP denies he is advocating for paranormal claims, I'm inclined to take that at face value as long as there remains the possibility that his AI is producing coded language inadvertently. But that's only because it's Friday and I feel generous today.
 
It's a distinction most commonly argued by people who want to wedge a specific belief into the perceived gap between empirical science and the body of all knowledge.


His rant in Portuguese (now banished to the hall of shame) explicitly mentioned rhetoric against "pseudo-skeptics" for improperly rejecting claims on an ideological basis rather than for good rational reasons. Again, whether he intends to argue a paranormal claim or not, he is quoting paranormal-coded rhetoric almost verbatim. And since that latest rant was in his native language, the claim that he can't know what kind of English is being produced becoemes irrelevant. All that's left for him to stand on is the accepted conclusion that the post was generated by AI in Portuguese, and he may yet not understand that his AI is expressly pulling from paranormal-coded arguments in whatever language.
Whenever someone starts ranting about "pseudo-skeptics", like "social justice warriors" or "woke" it's an excellent sign they have nothing useful to say.
 
Regardless, I can empirically demonstrate the concept of "one" by putting a single apple on the table. I can demonstrate that "two" is the successor to "one" by putting a second apple down next to it. Thus is this propositional axiom demonstrated empirically.
No, you can't. You need the concepts first. There are literally people in the world who are anumeric, for whom this is not an adequate demonstration.

You are trying to relitigate an argument between empiricists and rationalists that was more or less settled via synthesis in the 18th century.
 
Non-factual truth?

That's a good one!
Actually yes, it is good.

A fact is defined as :-
1 : something that actually exists or occurs : an actual event, situation, etc.

2: information or a piece of information presented as true or accurate
"trying to separate fact from fiction"
Actual is defined as:-
1a: existing in fact or reality
Where real is defined as:-
1a: having objective independent existence
Only empirical properties of the physical world are 'facts' (aka 'information'). 'I have two ears' is a fact. 1 + 1 = 2 is true in the decimal numbering system, but it doesn't mean I have 2 ears.

How do you (as in you) know (as in know, not think or assume or believe) it's true if it isn't a fact.
Good question. Scientism says you can only know something is a fact if you have empirical data from the physical world, to which you apply the scientific method to determine the truth about it. The paranormal fails this test. Quite a bit of 'science' also fails. But that doesn't apply to mathematical, logical, philosophical or ethical truths.

This distinction is important because they are different kinds of knowledge that aren't equivalent. Math tells us there probably are aliens out there that could be visiting the Earth in spaceships. The data says they haven't. Science says lobotomizing everyone with aggressive tendencies would be an efficient way to cut down violent crime. Ethics says we shouldn't.
 

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