Is Scepticism a process, or a belief system?

I'll try to get it, if you'll explain to me what I'm supposed to get. You could give me no attributes of god. Therefore all statements about god are meaningless. The best I can scrounge up is that god is something that can exist under idealism but not under materialism because god is mentalish, not materialish.

~~ Paul
 
The logical, a priori conclusion of Belief Sytem Materialism -- using reasonable and accepted definitions of what matter is -- is that god does not, cannot exist.

I don't see how the nonexistence of god can be an 'a priori conclusion' in any belief system. ...or does that mean the same thing as 'postulate'?
 
I don't see how the nonexistence of god can be an 'a priori conclusion' in any belief system. ...or does that mean the same thing as 'postulate'?
Of course it should be -- and is -- a premise, for any person who cared to make a logical argument extolling the joys of materialism. We have no one here of that description save Jeff Corey. Strange, huh?

Even Dancing David wimped out in the other thread, paraphrasing "umm, he doesn't know that god does not exist". Welcome back to dualism, DD. :p



I'll try to get it, if you'll explain to me what I'm supposed to get. You could give me no attributes of god. Therefore all statements about god are meaningless. The best I can scrounge up is that god is something that can exist under idealism but not under materialism because god is mentalish, not materialish.

~~ Paul
I have no quibble with that statement.

But please don't tell me you actually "get it"; I might be forced to re-examine what I've been through here over the last few years.

































(Nah, just pullin' your leg on the 're-examination' part ... :) )
 
Hammegk said:
I have no quibble with that statement.
You oughta quibble the hell out of my statement. It defines god in terms of mentalish, which is itself poorly defined. The entire thing is almost circular: You want to favor idealism because it allows for god, but god's only attribute (so far) is that he is idealish. I don't understand why I should think of god as mentalish rather than physicalish. Is it because mentalish is more like the fuzzy supernatural view of god that is so common?

But please don't tell me you actually "get it"; I might be forced to re-examine what I've been through here over the last few years.
Don't worry, my friend, I'm still primarily confoosed.

~~ Paul
 
Paul said:
I don't understand why I should think of god as mentalish rather than physicalish.
Because that's the only way you can understand how god exists. Since god exists, but isn't physicalish, it has be be mentalish. And once you understand god in a mentalish way for the mentalish thing he/she/it is, then you can see how god might even be physicalish in a way that exists outside of your own mentalish abilities.
Or something.
 
Of course it should be -- and is -- a premise, for any person who cared to make a logical argument extolling the joys of materialism. We have no one here of that description save Jeff Corey...
Not the joys of materialsm, just the cold, hard facts. But, punkie boy, who called me a liar, the nonexistent joy of idealism must warm the cockles of your supernatural soul.
 
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By way of introduction, I'm a professional scientist. And a brain scientist to boot. Being that I do this stuff for a living, I see first hand day in and day out how unobjective the process of validation really is.
Gosh... I find myself... skeptical.

:)

When you start to follow this, and similar, sociological aspects of the scientific enterprise through to their logical conclusions, then you begin to see how imperfect the process is.
You don't seem to quite understand what post-modern means.

Pomos don't argue that scientists ask the questions that society pays them to ask (which strikes me as a deeply uncontroversial position); pomos argue that scientists find the results that society pays them to find.

A rather different kettle of fish, don't you think?

All knowledge stems from the brain
We do not know how the brain creates knowledge
Therefore we do not understand how we know anything.
How is this any different than Plato?

We've never known how the brain works. Now you, after many years of school and a fancy degree, don't know what I started out not knowing.

This is news, why?

You think you see something, but upon closer inspection, it becomes vapid.
Irony is my favorite flavor.

Look at matter. We used to think it was solid. Now we know its mostly empty.
And how has that observation changed anything?

For 250,000 years we thought of matter as solid. We used that model to evade being eaten by tigers. And you know what? Every single person that dodged a tiger is still right; the model they had is still adequate to dodge tigers.

Newton is still true.

That our understanding floats, like a cloud.
Sounds like somebody needs to be acquainted with the patented Yahzi Baseball Bat Test (TM).

Step 1. Obtain a baseball bat.

Step 2. Fix your mind firmly on the notion that you don't understand anything.

Step 3. Strike yourself forcefully in the head until step 2 is no longer possible.

Viola! Understanding!

Again, I challange everyone here to show me that the mind is not the center of all knowledge.
Step 1. Obtain a baseball bat...

And that, since we do not understand the mind, we do not understand knowledge.
Have you ever heard of Goedel's theorem?

Here's Yahzi's Theorem: Goedel's Theorem shows that a formal system cannot prove every true statement in that system. But it is itself an extremely formal proof, thus ensuring that the kind of people who argue that formal proofs must prove everything are precisely the people who won't understand it.
 
How could a brain scientist not know at least the basics about how the mind works? Somehow I don't have the same picture of how far the research has come in mind and brain research as you seem to have, dondeg.
 
Because that's the only way you can understand how god exists. Since god exists, but isn't physicalish, it has be be mentalish. And once you understand god in a mentalish way for the mentalish thing he/she/it is, then you can see how god might even be physicalish in a way that exists outside of your own mentalish abilities.
Or something.
Then a lot of things people believe about their gods would have to be incorrect. My understanding is the gods are supposed to have some kind of power over the physical world. That at least implies a physicalish effect.
 
On the original topic, I think the only people who define skepticism as a process are a small circle of people who subscribe to the "movement" or whatever you want to call it. I know scientists and layman who are skeptics in their everyday life but don't spend time reading skeptic magazines or visiting skeptic websites; few of them would describe skepticism as a process.

Furthermore, the dictionary definitions I have seen describe as a philosophy, an attitude, doubt ...

Correction on that, I have found one on the web (American heritage dictionary, 2000) that describes it as a methodology in one definition.

Based on how most people use it, I would say it is we who are pushing this definition rather than others who are misusing it.

Walt
 
Okay.

Because so many people and cats can't spell worth **** and skeptics are people or cats (really....I'm not making that up).

/correction

Linda

I have learned a lot from the 13-y-o moggy who shares our home. Prefer his company to most humans' company anyday :)

M.
 
Not the joys of materialsm,
Yeah, I mis-spoke. The inherent nihilism always creeping in could be joyless.

just the cold, hard facts.
No. Your interpretation of the "facts".

But, punkie boy, who called me a liar,
Stick with facts, or make it conjecture, and you won't have that problem.

the nonexistent joy of idealism
Ya, think, Jeffie?

must warm the cockles of your supernatural soul.
Should soul exist it would not be supernatural. And I've never claimed the existence of a soul. "Supernatural" is a materialist straw-man.


Then a lot of things people believe about their gods would have to be incorrect.
Silly, I'd say.

My understanding is the gods are supposed to have some kind of power over the physical world. That at least implies a physicalish effect.
An idealist could take the position that what we perceive and name physical is an epiphenomena of god-stuff, as god would be, should god per se exist.
 
Being a skeptic is not about what you believe, its about how you reach your conclusions. A skeptic will listen to a claim, and instead of relying on personal biases and beliefs, use science and all relevant data to sort out a conclusion. A skeptic will not believe something if there is not evidence to support the claim. This is not to say that a skeptic is automatically biased towards disbelief, but they just wait until all the evidence has been analyzed to make a decision.

If there was proven evidence through science that Aliens landed on Earth, I would be more than happy to believe it if all of the essential information was there (video footage, audio recordings, credible eye witnesses, some sort of unknown substance not previously known to man, and any other sort of evidence that could justify aliens). But UNTIL that happens, I will have to say that there is not enough evidence to support that aliens have landed on earth.
 
It has been a while since I have been around here, but nice to see Hammy is still here talking cryptic nonsense and remaining completely unable to provide a direct, useful, or helpful contribution. :D
 
I see skepticism as a sifter, a methodology to unveil the mysteries of existance, a willingness to test ideas against observations and evidence.

The real world is often subtler than what we may think, skepticism and open debate are the best tools for unfolding and understanding it.

There is a philosophical component, namely that the universe can be understood.
 
A skeptic will not believe something if there is not evidence to support the claim. This is not to say that a skeptic is automatically biased towards disbelief, but they just wait until all the evidence has been analyzed to make a decision.

so doesn't that imply that skeptics are sorta ruled out of interesting subjects like cosmology? if the only experimental evidence we have for gravity (GR) is confined to the solar system, and our skeptic wants to study galaxy formation... how long will it take her to finish her D Phil?
 
I see skepticism as a sifter, a methodology to unveil the mysteries of existance, a willingness to test ideas against observations and evidence.

The real world is often subtler than what we may think, skepticism and open debate are the best tools for unfolding and understanding it.

One's of it's biggest virtues is also used as an investigative tool for uncovering corruption, and deceit.

A non-biased skeptical inquiry however, is a goal unreachable by almost all skeptics.
 
One's of it's biggest virtues is also used as an investigative tool for uncovering corruption, and deceit.

A non-biased skeptical inquiry however, is a goal unreachable by almost all skeptics.

A proper skeptical inquiry should make questions of bias irrelevant.
 

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