Is ours a Christian civilization?

[Darth Rotor]

Sure we had christian influence, but the contribution of Christianity to the success of western civilization is minor.

Oh?

Christianity was the common thread, culturally, throughout central and western Europe that bound the civilization together for about a thousand years. (I'd use Charlemagne as a good leaping off point, since that is about when the central European Germanics seem to have fallen into the basket of "Western Civilization" but others will differ on that).

Minor? I don't think so.

Significant? Yes.

The significant influence of pre Christian Greek, Germanic, and Celtic cultures has already been mentioned, so I won't go there. Western Civilization has been quite the sponge, soaking up all sorts of influences.

Or maybe it's The Borg! Resistance is futile, you shall be assimilated! The ultimate manifestation of Western Civilization, the Big Mac, is ubiquitous!

DR

 

[pakeha]

Even so, I wikied Rennaissance and found this:

There is a general, but not unchallenged, consensus that the Renaissance began in Florence, Tuscany in the 14th century.[4] Various theories have been proposed to account for its origins and characteristics, focusing on a variety of factors including the social and civic peculiarities of Florence at the time; its political structure; the patronage of its dominant family, the Medici;[5] and the migration of Greek scholars and texts to Italy following the Fall of Constantinople at the hands of the Ottoman Turks.[6][7][8]

Whew. At least, I hadn't imagined it.
Wiki also mentions the Plague as an influencing factor.
No mention of tri-cultural Spain, though.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Even so, I wikied Rennaissance and found this:


Whew. At least, I hadn't imagined it.
Wiki also mentions the Plague as an influencing factor.
No mention of tri-cultural Spain, though.

I appreciate that, given the importance of Levant Trading in Italy at the time, and how trade influences cultural interchange. The intellectual seed in Europe, among the educated classes, had already been planted in Spain for a few centuries. Perhaps it didn't quicken there, and thus the Italians take the credit, due to the Reconquista, and cultural reaction in Catholic Spain, versus the development and momentum that Italy carried forward.

That said, the Greek influence part I left out, which you corrected me about.

DR

 

[AWPrime]

Oh?

Christianity was the common thread, culturally, throughout central and western Europe that bound the civilization together for about a thousand years. (I'd use Charlemagne as a good leaping off point, since that is about when the central European Germanics seem to have fallen into the basket of "Western Civilization" but others will differ on that).

Minor? I don't think so.

Significant? Yes.

Christianity wasn't all that a good unifier. Its introduction as the roman state religion, could be seen as a horrifically backfired plan. However it might have been a significant common burden.
But I think that men such as Charlemagne and marriages between feudal families likely did more to unify Europe.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Christianity wasn't all that a good unifier. Its introduction as the roman state religion, could be seen as a horrifically backfired plan. However it might have been a significant common burden.
But I think that men such as Charlemagne and marriages between feudal families likely did more to unify Europe.

You take a particular opinion of Christianity, that it is only a burden, but give me no reason to find it compelling, or even valid. One of the few cultural similiarities between all of those different ethnic and tribal groups all over Europe, by the time of the first millenium, was the Church, in all of its glorious imperfection. Take yourself, in the year 1000, from Scotland to Consantinople, from Buda Pest to Cartagena, and one of the few things a lot of those folks had in common was, roughly, the Church, even though The Church was less than perfectly homogenous itself.

Christianity wasn't all that a good unifier

Politically, you are probably right. Culturally, wrong.

But I think that men such as Charlemagne and marriages between feudal families likely did more to unify Europe

Yes, no question those links were a force for blending. But you are looking at mostly politics, and to a lesser extent economics, whereas civilization also includes an immense measure of culture. Likewise, that "unifying" theme is also "tear it apart theme" for the same reason: all that intermarrying created the condition for wars a plenty: see the war of Spanish Succession for one example among dozens.

DR

 

[TimCallahan]

I appreciate that, given the importance of Levant Trading in Italy at the time, and how trade influences cultural interchange. The intellectual seed in Europe, among the educated classes, had already been planted in Spain for a few centuries. Perhaps it didn't quicken there, and thus the Italians take the credit, due to the Reconquista, and cultural reaction in Catholic Spain, versus the development and momentum that Italy carried forward.

That said, the Greek influence part I left out, which you corrected me about.

DR

One thing, I thiink, that gets lost in discussions of the cause of the Renaisance is the contribution of the Middle Ages to cif=vilization. I recall from the history I was taught the impression that the middle ages were this grim, benighted time. Then, suddenly, the Renaisance happened and people got civilized again. Certainly there was a great acceleration of civilivation then; but one shouldn't forget the contributions of what went before.

Among the achievements of the middle ages are: harnessing of horse, wind and water power, and with the latter two the basics of machinery (gears, ratchets pulleys etc.); the three field agricutural system - vastly superior to Classical Civilization's two field system; the institution of the Arabic numeral system and lower case letters; Gothic architecture, whic featured such innovations as the Gothic arc, vaulted cielings and the flying buttress. We should also remember that mny of the major cities of Europe were founded in the middle ages. Among these are: Vienna, Hamburg, Heidelburg, Berlin, Prague, Crackow, Warsaw, Novgorod, Kiev, Moscow, Dublin, Trondheim, etc. London went from being Roman fortress to a major city, and Paris from a village of mud huts to the home Notre Dame Cathedal.

Of all these acheivements, only Gothic architecture and lower case letters seem to be influenced by Christianity. Lower case letters derive from the Irish half-uncials, an inadvertant gift from Itih monks copying Classical manuscripts, along with the Bible. The technology enabling Europeans to fully utilize the horse - horse shoes, stirrups and the horse collar - seem to have been brought west by the Huns and Avars. Being able to utilize horses, rather than oxen, to plow fields probably mde th three field system possible. The Arabic numeral system, which actually originated in India, was brought by Arab traders, although it was snactioned by one of the popes ca. 800.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

I'm not sure even culturally how much of the credit is Christianity's, and how much due to Charlemagne's empire spanning really that much of Europe, and how much is due to the overwhelming influence of the Romans even after the demise of the actual Western Roman Empire, etc. You still hear for example about Salic law and its being invoked in this or that war of succession (e.g., in the 100 year war), and that's really germanic law, not Christian law.

Basically even culturally, the common religion was just one common factor. Just one of the many many other factors.

 

[arthwollipot]

I understand he wields a big hammer if that helps

Hammer, axe, I'm not fussy.

 

[Darth Rotor]

One thing, I thiink, that gets lost in discussions of the cause of the Renaisance is the contribution of the Middle Ages to cif=vilization.

This is an interesting little switch here. I make a reference to culture, and you go back to civilization in a manner that treats civilization as though it exists despite of culture and its influences, even though you began with "western" as your civilization's adjective.

Funny.

DR

 

[TimCallahan]

This is an interesting little switch here. I make a reference to culture, and you go back to civilization in a manner that treats civilization as though it exists despite of culture and its influences, even though you began with "western" as your civilization's adjective.

Funny.

DR

Looking back over the post in question, I really can't figure out what problem you have with what I said or, for that matter, what exactly you're talking about in the quote above. I was simply rearking that the contributions to Western Civilization that occurred in the middle ages are often treated dismissively. At least they were when I was growing up - admittedly some decades ago. I then dealt with which of those contributions could be considered Christian in origin. I'm really in the dark as to what you consider to be a switch.

 

[stilicho]

Quote:
Christianity wasn't all that a good unifier

Politically, you are probably right. Culturally, wrong.
DR

Civilisation is probably more a cultural, social, and intellectual process than a political one anyhow.

I didn't really see the subject of "civilisation" thoroughly defined yet. I assume we mean modernity, with automobiles, museums of fine art, liberal democratic institutions, banking, plastic bottles for our drinking water, and so on. Or is it a characteristic from which those things derive? Anybody care to define exactly what "civilisation" entails? Does it include or exclude religion or philosophy?

 

[Hux]

Heres a start:

A civilization (or civilisation) is a complex society or culture group characterized by dependence upon agriculture, long-distance trade, state form of government, occupational specialization, urbanism, and class stratification. Aside from these core elements, civilization is often marked by any combination of a number of secondary elements, including a developed transportation system, writing, standards of measurement (currency, etc.), formal legal system, great art style, monumental architecture, mathematics, sophisticated metallurgy, and astronomy.

For many, it is the simple act of living closely together rather than as disparate groups. But, if you take the above as a very broad swathe of an idea, then there's no doubt that for better or worse, we have been (in the West) a Christian civilisation. It could have been almost anything else.

 

[TimCallahan]

My evidence otherwise is the almost perfect correlation between level of religiosity in societies and crime rate. The state in US with lowest crime rate is Oregon. It is also the least religious one, with 18% of people self-identifying as atheists. Mississipi is the state at the opposite end of BOTH statistics.

This holds worldwide too. Countries which are essentially atheist, like Norway and Japan, have extremely low crime rate. Very religious countries like Brazil and Nigeria have extremely high, second only to "failed states" like Somalia (which are pretty heavy on religion as well).

Sorry, Ham, but while your perception of depression may be right, your perception of its causes/correlations is dead wrong.

Back when I was in collee, a form of the depression argument was being used by some to discredit welfare states, such as Sweden. On hearing the argument that Sweden's comparitively high rate of suicide showed the ills of such a state, one professor of mine quipped that he'd rather live in a society where the unstabel people killed themselves than in one where they killed other people.

 

[stilicho]

Heres a start:


For many, it is the simple act of living closely together rather than as disparate groups. But, if you take the above as a very broad swathe of an idea, then there's no doubt that for better or worse, we have been (in the West) a Christian civilisation. It could have been almost anything else.

It's still an enduring mystery why the Enlightenment and its general course of inquiry began in "our civilisation" and not elsewhere. I suppose we could have continued along our not-so-merry way without it but it appears to be a feature of "civilisation" not found elsewhere. I am a bit biased towards that epoch as being more important than the Renaissance as there was not much in rediscovering ancient Greece and Rome that would produce "modern civilisation".

 

[Hux]

I have no argument with that; the Renaissance was vital to our growth intellectually and culturally. But it was a reaction to the Dark Ages, which is just another expression for when the church was in almost complete control.

Islam had its 'Renaissance' as it were. Science and arts flourished; mathematics, Geometry even medicinebut it all went tits up by the 1400's. Enlightenment was not confined to Christendom but by happen stance, Christianity was, for better or worse, the front seat driver in western civilisation.

 

[AWPrime]

It was a front seat driver in the dark ages, it became a front seat passenger.

 

[Hux]

I'm sure you'd like to think that.

 

[AWPrime]

I'm sure you'd like to think that.

And you like to feel otherwise.

 

[Hux]

Do you really think mainland Europe has never been under the sway of Christianity? We are characterised as a christian civilisation, whether you like it or not. I do not.

 

[AWPrime]

Do you really think mainland Europe has never been under the sway of Christianity? We are characterised as a christian civilisation, whether you like it or not. I do not.

Sure it has been under the sway, but I think that European civilization is of many things, and at current date I wouldn't call it a christian civilization anymore then I would call it a roman civilization.
The real christian civilizations are likely outside of Europe.