Is music education outdated?

[Tmy]

I didnt have any music program at my elementry school. But theres one thing Ive noticed about music ed. Its so dated! The songs and instruments taught/learned arent even close to the popular music kids listen to today.

Wouldnt music programs be more popular if they offered electric guitar, or if school band focused more on rock and pop music. Do 13 year olds really wants to learn how to play"grand Ol flag"?

 

[Hawk one]

I didnt have any music program at my elementry school. But theres one thing Ive noticed about music ed. Its so dated! The songs and instruments taught/learned arent even close to the popular music kids listen to today.

Wouldnt music programs be more popular if they offered electric guitar, or if school band focused more on rock and pop music. Do 13 year olds really wants to learn how to play"grand Ol flag"?

I think I both agree and disagree with you here.


As for instruments, I don't really know much of any instruments that is dated. Horns, acoustic guitars, violins, etc. are all still going strong. I'd in fact say that for example symphony orchestras are having a fairly good time lately. Star Wars, Matrix, LoTR would be examples of movies utilising it. And in the world of video games, it has become an ever-so-slightly fashion to, when they don't just put it in the game itself, make orchestra covers of game music (in particular the Final Fantasy series). That the most electronic-based of all entertainment is doing such a thing should be rather telling on how "dated" non-electrical instruments are.

Anecdotal stuff coming up. I also happen to know 5 different people all over the world who are trying to start a band in their respective places. All of them either plays the acoustic guitar or have someone in the band doing it. It seems to me that not only is the acoustic guitar a good place to start learning playing the guitar in general. Plus, have you heard how horrible it sounds when you play an electric guitar badly? Let's just say that I wouldn't have lasted one semester if I was a music teacher trying to teach that from scratch... Though I suppose same thing can be said for violins, but then again, that one's also not usually taught in elementary schools.

The part I do agree with you on is the selection of songs one learns to play in school. Now granted, the songs are mostly chosen for their simplicity (and thus ease to learn), not their overall quality or appeal. But an update at least every other decade or so would at least not hurt. At all.

What could be fun would be if someone took to make acoustic versions of less likely suspects. I know for example that there is a CD out there with an acoustic version of AC/DC songs. And word is that quite a few AC/DC fans approve of it (though take this with the proverbial pinch of NaCl). And personally, I'd rather they do stay away from some of the pop music kids listen to today. I mean, geez, come on, [insert generic rant about the state of the majority of the pop music on the hit lists these days].

 

[Kiless]

Our last school graduation ceremony had a montage of orchestral songs from Star Wars I, Phantom Menace. Very impressively done. I'll send the opening statement to our Dept (in a high school) to see what their response is.

 

[Kiless]

Re: Re: Is music education outdated?

Ruling Legoland (formerly known as Denmark), and sending
Australia to recycling.

WHAT???? YOU RATBAG!!!! ARGH!!!!!

 

[Gaga]

I didnt have any music program at my elementry school. But theres one thing Ive noticed about music ed. Its so dated! The songs and instruments taught/learned arent even close to the popular music kids listen to today.

Wouldnt music programs be more popular if they offered electric guitar, or if school band focused more on rock and pop music. Do 13 year olds really wants to learn how to play"grand Ol flag"?

I had musical education as part of the 'intermediate school' (I don't know how that translates in your system. It's for the 11-13 age range) and we had to play flute, mainly music from the renaissance.
I enjoyed it immensely and became part of the interclass 'orchestra' but I had a great teacher and weird musical tastes in comparison to my schoolmates
I think it's still a good idea to try to teach classical music that way.
- kids have an easy access to modern music but almost no clue re older music and that's a pity. Lots of them can be exposed to decent music only in class and a few might even like it!
- Parents are supposed to buy the instruments. The flute it's a plastic thinghy that costs almost nothing, almost all the other instruments are way more expensive. I wouldn't spend 300 euros on a guitar that might later just sit in a corner gathering dust.
- the class should be able to play together as in a band, and be able to do it within a reasonable time frame. Most of the instruments fail in one or both account. Guitar is 'easy' to learn, at least the basics, but you can't work on an ensemble with 20 guitars. Violin is perfect for an orchestra but it take ages to learn to play it and in the meantime you are exposed to a sound that reminds of a cat being skinned alive (I had a direct experience - no, not in the art of cat skinning - I've been exposed to violin beginners)

 

[Chris O.]

Another benefit of music education in public schools, is that it allows children to experiment in making music, and learn an instrument without costly private lessons.

Plus it's fun!

 

[Hawk one]

Re: Re: Re: Is music education outdated?

WHAT???? YOU RATBAG!!!! ARGH!!!!!

Hey, chill it. Once it's over, Australia 2 (that's the working name, I might change it later) will be very much improved. Indeed, it will be so much better that you can't believe you managed to live in the previous Australia. Here are a few things the recycling project will intend to do:

* Travel back in time to feed a baby Victor Zammit to the dingos.

* Make sure people stop referring to people as Australians when they aren't. (Mel Gibson, Elijah Woods, etc.)

* Introduce full frontal nudity of the better-looking cast members in Home and Away every episode.

* Destroy Foster's.

* Remove any and all connections, formal or otherwise, to being part of Britain and having the Queen as a the top head.

* Move the continent to the Northern hemisphere to once and for all end the "standing up-side-down" jokes. Not to mention your seasons will finally make sense again.


And that is just the beginning. Seriously, I think we got a good thing going, here.

 

[Jorghnassen]

Hey, you need to start with the basics. Never forget the value of classical training. Besides, even the second viennese (sp?) school is better than the canned stuff done today... Then again, American schools appear to have a Sousa bias in their music program, maybe they should teach the real stuff instead .

/flamebait

 

[Chris O.]

/bait taken
Sousa is nice and easy marching music. He also wrote some important American marches. Of course it's become a cycle, everyone plays his music, because everyone plays his music. But for marches, he can't be beat.

ETA: OMFG I HATE MARCHES!!! (mild relapse from marching band after listening to a clip from: http://www.dws.org/sousa/works.htm )

 

[Chris Haynes]

...... Then again, American schools appear to have a Sousa bias in their music program, maybe they should teach the real stuff instead .

/flamebait

Around here it is JAZZ...
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/224480_jazzed.html?searchpagefrom=1&searchdiff=17

Though my #2 son opted to not do the jazz band but the 8th grade concert band. He plays the saxophone. This year their featured piece was Inchon by Robert W. Smith:
http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/a/item.html?id=69435&item=3853772

My 5th grade daughter plays the violin... and at her concert tonite she will be part of a group that will play "Star of the County Down", part of Vivaldi's "Autumn" and a portion of the "William Tell Overture".

We have paid for private lessons. We stopped the oldest afer a couple of years because he would not practice... the private lessons stopped for #2 child because his piano/sax teacher moved to New York (Firday she is playing at http://www.maiameyhane.com/ ), so he just does school music, and child #3 still has lessons.

I figured the cost and time was all worthwhile when #2 told me he hated Brittany Spears!

 

[Chris Haynes]

...Then again, American schools appear to have a Sousa bias in their music program, maybe they should teach the real stuff instead .

/flamebait

AArgh... I spoke too soon. This evening at their last performance for the year it ended with "Stars and Stripes Forever" by Sousa!

According to the teacher/conductor for their last band concert the class got to decide what to play. So they threw out Inchon, actually requested "Concerto for Trumpet" by Haydn... and they must have wanted Sousa because it keeps them awake (perhaps it is fun?!).

This evening involved dropping daughter off at her school, then taking son to his with the cookies for the bake sale (which were really good, but there were still too many left at the end of the evenig -- bah!... just because they were oatmeal/raisin and not chocolate, people are just prejudiced against non-chocolate goodies!)... then returning to listen to daughter's school. I had to wait to the bitter end to video her strings group... and when that was done.... rush away to son's school to video his concert (hubby got worked late, but managed to get to daughter's school concert to see her and take her home).

whew!

Now, after a daughter choir concert and violin recital, I will edit the video to show my parents. That way I can kind of prove I am not raising savages (these are the same kids that kill creatures in video games!).

 

[arthwollipot]

I started playing music at a very young age, when my parents (too stingy to buy a piano) bought a small Hammond organ. Actually it was some other brand of organ, but you know the type. I had lessons on that, which is where I learned to read music.

In 4th Grade (age about 11 I think) I joined the school band and learned to play the trombone. The tromb has always been my primary instrument, even when I learned others. I played in the primary school band for three years, and when I went to high school, of course I joined the high school band.

Which was absolutely fantastic. We toured all over the place. When I was in Year 7 we toured the north island of New Zealand, and when I was in Year 10 we toured Tasmania. In between times we made numerous trips to Sydney, Bathurst and other regional centers in NSW.

When I started Year 11 and 12, I branched out a little, studying jazz at the Canberra School of Music (now part of the ANU), and playing in a little jazz combo in Civic on saturday mornings.

Unfortunately after I left school and entered the workforce I found that I had less and less time to devote to music. As a result I no longer play regularly, but my school years playing music have shaped me as a person. To use a loaded word, music is in my soul and always will be. Even though I don't actually have a soul. But that's another story.

 

[LW]

But for marches, he can't be beat.

Apparently you haven't ever heard marches by the Pokrass brothers or Ivan Aturov or Vasili Agapin or Vasili Muradeli or other great Russian march composers.

Dmitri Pokrass in particular was involved in many of the greatest marches like, "Белая Армия, черный Барон", "Конармейский марш", and "Если завтра война". Aturov's best was "По долинам и по взгорьям", Agapin's "Прощание Славянки", and Muradeli's "Маршал Буденный".

 

[Glacian]

I think maybe for elementary schools they ought to start with more basic/classical instruments and perhaps introduce keyboards, electric guitars, etc. in middle school and go further in high school. I would even like to see high schools have studios set up and students could involve themselves in rap/hip hop/rock/metal, you name it. That would be sweet. Yeah, I think they may be a bit outdated with some of the instruments they use in elementary schools; we learned to play recorders and there was one piano available and the music we learned was quite old and boring.

I think maybe the reason is that you can't hand out a bunch of guitars to 10 year olds, and expect them to get anywhere with them. A recorder was a pitifully simple instrument to learn and it was easy to teach to 30+ kids at a time in our overcrowded school. guitars, pianos, and violins? Not a chance. And imagine trying to teach a bunch of young kids percussion! 60 drum sticks slamming away...talk about a headache. If I have children who become interested in music I'll have them go as an out-of-school activity. I'm not even sure music really even belongs in elementary schools, come to think of it...

 

[kittynh]

I remember taking "Music" as an educational class in middle school. I was a little concerned. If you didn't play an instrument you had to take this class. I play the piano, but that didn't count.

Well, it was great!

We did the lives of musicians, some of it pretty interesting. We learned to appreciate music, how to listen to music.

We also studied and took apart a "real" opera, "The Magic Flute" and a modern rock opera "Tommy".

It was one of the best classes I ever had, and I remember so much of it today. I think all children should have to take a class like that.

We also did how rock evolved. Very interesting! For the children that were AFrican American, it was nice to finally take a class where "the black people weren't just on the sidelines" (to quote my friend Marie).

 

[shecky]

I went to Catholic schools that generally had pitiful music programs. In contrast, my kid's elementary school starts the kids out with a orchestra instrument or voice in 4th grade, plus general music class. The textbook is pretty broad, covering classical, folk and pop styles, even mentioning modern computer/synth techniques. All students also use a recorder in general music for learning simple notation.

There was a 4th grade concert last week. Not surprisingly, they sounded much like you'd expect a 4th grade orchestra would. But I was impressed by the teachers being able to get so much coherence from the bunch. Sure, lots of squeaky clarinets and scratchy violins, but they played as a unit.

Guitar might become more attractive as a school instrument, particularly in upper grades, as decent playable guitars are so inexpensive. I wonder if they are poorly suited to group instruction/performance, especially for the younger grades.

 

[bigred]

I didnt have any music program at my elementry school. But theres one thing Ive noticed about music ed. Its so dated! The songs and instruments taught/learned arent even close to the popular music kids listen to today.

Thank God for small favors. Do they even USE actual instruments in much of today's "music?"

Having a music ed class by focusing on popular music is IMO similar to having a cooking class where you sit around eating candy bars.

I think all kids should get exposed to the basics of music, eg instruments, key artists in primary genres, and its history...and by that I don't mean memorizing a lot of dates/etc but hearing earlier versions of music and working your way up. And I don't have a problem ENDING the course by leading up to modern times, but IMO it should only be a little at the end.

Edit: it seems you're talking more about actually learning to play instruments vs music eduction in general. Assuming that's so, I agree w/you more, but still largely not. Again many songs nowdays (at least that I hear) depend on electronics and effect vs having an atual quality melody, harmonies, chord progressions, etc. But that isn't to suggest that kids should be forced to play "little brown jug" (etc) over and over either. It should be mixed up some, and something they're more into thrown in once in awhile if for no other reason than to give their interest level a kick start.

 

[bigred]

Re: Re: Is music education outdated?

Guitar is 'easy' to learn, at least the basics,

Says you! Guitar always seemed so "weird" I think, ie "here twist your hand in this arthritic position...stop wincing pls....there! That's C major." sheesh

I'll stick to keyboards thx.

 

[Chris Haynes]

My rather ragged music experience as a kid was with a guitar with a bit of piano added (it is very difficult to maintain lessons when you get moved every year or two, and then there was the issue as to why in my whole two months of piano lessons I went through two teachers!). I did come away some basic knowledge: my fingernails are always short, guitar strings do not like staying in tune... and guitars are a chord based instruments.

So whenever my kids ask to start learning to play a guitar I tell them they have to be far enough along in the Level 2 piano book to recognize chords.

By the way... for my kids: The school starts with real instruments in 4th grade, for those kids who are interested. This year all but two fourth graders were in choir, band or strings... in previous years less than a dozen participated. It depends on how the program is run, and who the teacher is.

There is a list of instruments that they can choose from like violin, cello, clarinet, flute, trumpet, percussion, saxophone and some other basic ones. Then there is a list of instruments that are possible with music teacher permission like a baritone, double-bass, bassoon, trombone, etc (usually these are kids who are taking private lessons). But NO guitars nor keyboard instruments.

BUT... and a big but --- some schools with extra parent funding (lots of fundraising) can get some extras. One of those was getting specialized instructional electronic keyboards into the music room to use with even the kindergarteners ... AND then providing recorders for 3rd graders.

AND... now an even bigger but: The music teacher they got in the past couple of years has started an elementary jazz combo (a couple of the kids were getting private guitar lessons), and started an introduction to guitars class (kids had to provide their own instruments).

The basic school music is the "Standard of Excellence" series, which have basic tunes that are usually recognizable. Kind of like these:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0849759382/ ... then the music the elementary kids play at concerts are usually recognizable -- with an occasionally very simplified version of music from a popular movie. One year it was the Harry Potter theme, and last week it was the Star Wars theme.

Since being a parent of two school musicians I can tell you that there is constant fund-raising. But that is nothing new... I think I still have part of comb set my mother bought at the hairdresser's thirty years ago... the hairdresser's daughter was selling them to get her (and mine) highschool's marching band enough funds for an out of state trip. Fortunately I have the best neighbors -- last year my son sold his entire box of band fundraiser Almond Roca to just four neighbors... we decided to not press our luck with the middle school band CD's (we like our neighbors, and want them to still like us!).

 

[arthwollipot]

Re: Re: Is music education outdated?

Thank God for small favors. Do they even USE actual instruments in much of today's "music?"

Having a music ed class by focusing on popular music is IMO similar to having a cooking class where you sit around eating candy bars.

I think this is a pretty biased view of modern music. Sure, I am the first to agree that most of what you see on MTV is crap and doesn't display a scrap of musical talent or ability. But I don't think it's fair to tar all modern music with this brush.

If I want to intellectualise about my music, I'll listen to Bach. Most people these days don't want intellectual music, they want music that means something to their lives. So they listen to Eminem and Marilyn Manson rather than Bach and Beethoven.

Needs change. And the recording and publishing industry caters to whatever makes money - whatever sells. Whatever is popular. People don't want Bach. They want Linkin Park. So that's what MTV plays.

If music classes in early school concentrated more on modern music, it would be more relevant to the lives of the kids they are teaching. That would make them more motivated.

Secondly, and this is my personal experience, it's a lot easier to get into a band and start playing gigs if you play the guitar than if you play the oboe. There's just no demand for good oboe players any more. Which is a damn shame, in my opinion.

So yeah. Let's start up rock bands in the schools. Don't force the kids to endlessly play Do You Know The Way To San Jose? because it means nothing to them. They get bored with it. In case you hadn't noticed, kids' attention spans are quite short.