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Is Mormonism any less true or sillier than other religions?

Although I disagree with whatthebutlersaw's conclusions, that is a nice analysis.

My main disagreement is the sample size. I suspect that the behavior of any religious group in the comfort zone of political power is somewhat different than when a marginal group. I've heard it said even among Mormons that there is a difference between Utah Mormons and Mormons born in other places.

So, first, I think Sweden needs a larger sample size of Mormons, be happy to send some Arizona senators over. :)

My other disagreement is just that I'm not convinced there is close connection between the kind of weird things people believe and actual behavior. It is not what people believe that matters, it is the fervor.

Mormonism is strongly influenced by the utopianism of the mid 1800's and in its perfect form is expressed as a perfect society - heaven on earth. There is no real difference between lifestyle, politics, or religion - they are all one thing.
 
All the prophets gods make special rules for the prophet.
 
Although I disagree with whatthebutlersaw's conclusions, that is a nice analysis.

My main disagreement is the sample size. I suspect that the behavior of any religious group in the comfort zone of political power is somewhat different than when a marginal group. I've heard it said even among Mormons that there is a difference between Utah Mormons and Mormons born in other places.

So, first, I think Sweden needs a larger sample size of Mormons, be happy to send some Arizona senators over. :)

My other disagreement is just that I'm not convinced there is close connection between the kind of weird things people believe and actual behavior. It is not what people believe that matters, it is the fervor.

Mormonism is strongly influenced by the utopianism of the mid 1800's and in its perfect form is expressed as a perfect society - heaven on earth. There is no real difference between lifestyle, politics, or religion - they are all one thing.

I openly admit that I don't have enough data on non-Swedish Mormons. From my point of view, growing up in an area where attempts at conversion were at least two a day, the ones we did have were a welcome change and the ones we had most definitely came off as less aggressive than similarly fringy churches.

I should also point out that I'm a bit of a pragmatist. To me impact trumps outlandishness, which is why I need more data on impact before making my mind up.

Sweden separated chuch and state first in 2000, so like anyone born before that I was born into the Swedish State Church which is Lutheran Protestant. I was even baptized (at 3 months) by parents who, despite being atheist themselves, found the tradition quaint and beautiful. I got to choose whether I wanted confirmation at 15 and chose not to be confirmed, but to this day I remain a member of Church of Sweden which basically means that whenever I am taxed in Sweden I pay tithe to it. I have looked into what that money, mainly, goes to and I mainly approve, so I keep paying. Do I like what the church stands for on a "spiritual" level? No. Do I like what they do with the money I pay them? Mainly, yes. I have seen the impact a CoS youth center can have on a disenfranchised area - but I have also seen my own father be encouraged to talk to the parish priest about his alcoholism instead of seeking medical and psychiatric help. Of that, I don't approve. CoS - good if you are young and underprivileged, bad if you are a middle aged alcoholic who really should be in treatment... But overall, the impact is mainly for the good. CoS rarely sticks their nose into legislation. Their official stance was against the synod that tried to oust women priests and they have a number of female bishops.

Their most problematic stance is regarding homosexuality. CoS practices a kind of "silent disapproval". Doctrine is "love the sinner, hate the sin" which, to my mind, is wrong because I can't see how homosexuality could be a sin. (I can't see how anything that personal or with such low practical impact on anyone else can be a sin.) So I disapprove of their disapproval. However: do I find that CoS goes out into the communitay and actively discourage people from homosexual actions? No, not in my experience. The problem starts when a homosexual person is also a believer. That's when the hurt starts and I don't approve. If the church does not mend its ways regarding this (and mind you, this is partly depending on individual vicars and parishes) I may still consider leaving it and withhold my tithe, despite the good work that they do.

And issues like this is what I'm looking for when I say I need data. To me, all major religions make incredibly outlandish claims. To make my mind up, impact is where it's at.

And of course, as with any religion, an important secondary endpoint is "Treatment of Lapsed members".

If I understand the "how long it's been around" argument correctly, it's not a matter of chronology but that when we have recorded history to measure against, we can know for a fact some claims are bunkum, while we have to strongly suspect claims made in, for example, OT, are bunkum.

Usually, to the inquiring mind, "We know this is false" trumps "We highly suspect this is false". Which is why it is considered slightly more odd to choose to believe something known to be false, than something highly suspected to be false.

But I don't find it as easy as that: while, for example, it is highly likely that a convicted fraudster is pulling a fast one this time too, we can't actually know that. If we don't believe in god, we don't believe god spoke to anyone, no matter their rap sheet. If we hold it possible that someone is spoken to by god, then there is no reason for god not to choose a convicted fraudster. I.e. Moses, Muhammed, Jesus, Robbard and Smith are about as plausible anyway. The difference is so marginal, that I personally can't call it on that. (No. I personally don't find even Xenu any less plausible than burning bushes or surviving without food or water for forty days. Call me crazy.)

I will have to call it on impact and on the behaviour of the adherents, because all the claims are silly to me.

I will voraciously read any post providing insight to impact. Like the poster above who felt angry and slighted when the Mormon kids couldn't play with him as a child. That kind of behaviour is silly and counts against. Providing charity is not silly and counts for. Proselytizing is silly and counts against. Standing by a principle of anti-violence, but still contributing by taking risky placements as medical staff is not silly and counts for. etc.
 
I few years after my introduction to Mormonism, I read a facinating book about master forger/con man/murdered, Mark Hofmann. An amazing story about how one highly skilled forger tricked the Mormon Church into giving him millions of dollars in order to keep a series of forged letters secret. The church purchased the letters from Hoffman, believing them to be real. These letters portrayed the early church in a bad light, and the church wanted to make sure that no one ever saw them.

The book is "A Gathering of Saints:A true story of Money, Murder, and Deceit".
 
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And, believe it or not, Joesph Smith is talked about much less in the Mormon church than by people outside of it. Sometimes people even forget he was the original "prophet." Within the church it is all about Brigham Young.

That doesn't change the fact that Smith invented the religion. Any rational evaluation of Mormonism would have to take into account information about Smith.
 
Sweden separated chuch and state first in 2000, so like anyone born before that I was born into the Swedish State Church which is Lutheran Protestant. I was even baptized (at 3 months) by parents who, despite being atheist themselves, found the tradition quaint and beautiful. I got to choose whether I wanted confirmation at 15 and chose not to be confirmed, but to this day I remain a member of Church of Sweden which basically means that whenever I am taxed in Sweden I pay tithe to it. I have looked into what that money, mainly, goes to and I mainly approve, so I keep paying.

Where does the tithe money go if you aren't a member of the CoS (or any other church)? I assume you don't get to keep it, or the churches would be starved of funding.
 
Usually, to the inquiring mind, "We know this is false" trumps "We highly suspect this is false". Which is why it is considered slightly more odd to choose to believe something known to be false, than something highly suspected to be false.

But I don't find it as easy as that: while, for example, it is highly likely that a convicted fraudster is pulling a fast one this time too, we can't actually know that. If we don't believe in god, we don't believe god spoke to anyone, no matter their rap sheet. If we hold it possible that someone is spoken to by god, then there is no reason for god not to choose a convicted fraudster. I.e. Moses, Muhammed, Jesus, Robbard and Smith are about as plausible anyway. The difference is so marginal, that I personally can't call it on that. (No. I personally don't find even Xenu any less plausible than burning bushes or surviving without food or water for forty days. Call me crazy.)

I definitely agree with the flavor of what you've written, but the distinction I was attempting to make earlier was...

In religious tales, it's usually a sign of the power of god to show the heights "he" can a raise a fallen man...and, generally, the farther fallen, the more powerful the deity. I suppose this is a double-edged sword for the Mormon church, though. To accurately portray the baselessness of Smith's character would show the "power of god", but, simultaneously, shatter the foundations of the belief system. So, the church is left defending the indefensible and the only way to do so is to pretend Smith's history isn't what it was or cry "anti-Mormon propaganda" at every turn.

If someone is born into this faith and thus raised in an environment of supposed persecution and/or willful ignorance, I can rationalize that their isolationism would allow them to engage in these contradictions. However, what I find bothersome is that anyone, with the amount of information that does exist about Joseph Smith and the founding of the Mormon church, would convert to this belief system in adulthood.

I suppose the answer is that some people are so needful of a belief system that they consider having one more important than intellectual honesty, but that, to me, is so irrational I have issues even attempting to contemplate it.
 
However, what I find bothersome is that anyone, with the amount of information that does exist about Joseph Smith and the founding of the Mormon church, would convert to this belief system in adulthood.
ISTR reading that the lapse rate for adult Mormon conversions was over 80%, which suggests that most convert first and then do the research.
 
Where does the tithe money go if you aren't a member of the CoS (or any other church)? I assume you don't get to keep it, or the churches would be starved of funding.

If you aren't a member of Church of Sweden, you don't pay tithe. Your tax is ten percent lower than that of those who do.
 
I think the fact that their holy book was dictated by a convicted fraudster talking into his hat and the fact that they are expected to wear sacred underpants makes the Mormons sillier than most and just as true as any of the major religions.

I agree. Sacred underwear to protect you from being burned in a fire is very cultish and humorous. Smith burying his head in his hat to translate the Book of Mormon that was in "reformed Egyptian. Marrying his sixteen year old housekeeper and the wives of many of his friends and associates; claiming that Jesus and God appeared to him at the same time in the air and both were men;
Baptism for the Dead in the temples; buying a mummy from a circus; but I think the most telling of the entire tale is the fact that he was convicted as a "money digger" in a court of law then "found" the plates when told by an angel where to dig for it and it was in a hill near his home. It's all crazy. But then, no one can prove who wrote the book. It has lovely chiasmus in it.
 
Really? How many people pay the tithe?

Anyone with a taxable income out of the 6.7M members (number from 2009, includes children. Ca 72% of the population. Retired people pay tax on their pensions in Sweden, and therefore also tithe.) Not sure how it pertains to the OP. The point of my example was to show that the "sect" I was born into, the then state church of Sweden, retains a good deal of its atheist, agnostic and lukewarm members through habit and/or the members approving of the work done even if the belief is not shared. (Since 1996 no one is born into the church but is signed up if the parents decide to baptise.) I, as a non believer, can approve of and decide to keep subsidizing the work of Church of Sweden despite my beliefs.

I would guess an ex-Mormon, like any lapsed member of any religion, can decide to approve of certain sides of their group, without accepting the central premise or other sides, and I as a pragmatist need to know the impact of the church before I can make my mind up if it is more silly than any of the other that are around.
 
The point of my example was to show that the "sect" I was born into, the then state church of Sweden, retains a good deal of its atheist, agnostic and lukewarm members through habit and/or the members approving of the work done even if the belief is not shared. (Since 1996 no one is born into the church but is signed up if the parents decide to baptise.) I, as a non believer, can approve of and decide to keep subsidizing the work of Church of Sweden despite my beliefs.


This discussion probably belongs in a thread of its own, but I can't understand how an atheist can agree to simply have 10% of their earnings automatically taken out and going directly to a church, no matter how admirably they may be spending the money.

Even if 100% of it were going to social work, not related at all to religious purposes, I would much prefer to donate that money independently myself, choosing which secular charities to give to. Simply agreeing to have a church decide how to use the money I donate seems wrong to me, as an atheist.

I am sure I probably don't fully understand the Swedish system, but I am just reacting to what's been posted here.

Sorry for going off-topic! Just had to add my two cents.
 
here is the problem with LDS

-its essentially a blashemous rip off of christianity. there might be sillier religions but i dont know of any other that tries to come off as a traditional denomination. as far as real christians are concerned, brigham young is burning in hell.. although they would let god decide.
 
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Quick summary of Mormon beliefs

In terms of aggravated religion, Mormons aren't that bad. They're worse than Judaism or the Amish, but less annoying than most other brands of zealotry. 'Course, just cause I'd rather have a headache than a kick in the nuts doesn't mean the experience is a pleasant one.

On the up side, having a whole mess of prudish faithful concentrated in an area makes flagrant indecency all the sweeter.
 
here is the problem with LDS

-its essentially a blashemous rip off of christianity. there might be sillier religions but i dont know of any other that tries to come off as a traditional denomination. as far as real christians are concerned, brigham young is burning in hell.. although they would let god decide.
Here's the problem with Christianity

-it's essentially a blasphemous rip off of Judaism. There might be sillier religions but I don't know of any other that tries to come off as a traditional denomination...

All religions are equal silly. From erroneous beginnings there's no telling in which direction they'll spin. Hence equally silly, just spun out of control in every conceivable direction.
 
All religions are equal silly. From erroneous beginnings there's no telling in which direction they'll spin. Hence equally silly, just spun out of control in every conceivable direction.

The spinning out of control part, where it affects other people's lives is where it starts getting into degrees of insane silliness...
 

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