Is Magic OK For Christians?

[Radrook]

The biblical answer is a resounding NO!



Acts 19
19And many of those who had practiced curious, magical arts collected their books and [throwing them, [1] book after book, on the pile] burned them in the sight of everybody. When they counted the value of them, they found it amounted to 50,000 pieces of silver ([2] about $9,300).

AMP


In the inspired book of Revelation Saint John tells us that the practice of magic is grouped right along with murder sexual immorality, cowardice, idolatry, lying and theft.

Revelation 9:21
Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.



Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars–their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."



Revelation 22:15
Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.


NIV


Ever wonder WHY GOD takes such a dim view of attempts at magic? There are good reasons.

 

[Benguin]

What's a miracle?

 

[Rob Lister]

Ever wonder WHY GOD takes such a dim view of attempts at magic? There are good reasons.

Assumes facts not in evidence. If you had asked, 'Ever wonder why the writers and editors of these texts take such a dim view or attempts at magic?' I would have answered, "No, I never much cared."

 

[Radrook]

What's a miracle?

You are missing the whole point.
Jesus, Moses, Peter, and others performed miracles and they were not condemned because the SOURCE of the power was God. It is not the miracle itself that is offensive.


Exodus 7:21
The fish in the river died, and the water became so foul that the Egyptians couldn't drink it. There was blood everywhere throughout the land of Egypt.

22
But again the magicians of Egypt used their secret arts, and they, too, turned water into blood.....

Obviously it wasn't God who was empowering the magicians to imitate on a limited scale. It was something sinister.

So it is the SOURCE of the power from whence it comes that is offensive.

Miracles are used by demons to deceive.
That's why Jesus said that though certain people who clsimed to be Christians performed great works, he still rejected them and called them lawless or evildoers.

Matthew 7
22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Obviously if these people were evildoers, and were still able to perform miracles, then the source of their power for their miracles was evil. In fact, demons were even cooperating by feigning being cast out in order to convince people that these evildoers were good.

The Devil is like Organized crime.
He hides behind a respectable front in order to operate efficiently.

Thus the Wicca and other such fronts have emerged.


The magic practicing priests of Egypt were able to imitate Moses up to a certain point. The source of their power was evil. S

So they are condemned while Moses is not.

Because there are forces out there striving to deceive us--we are told not to delve into such things for our own safety.

Does that clear it up a little?

 

[Radrook]

Re: Re: Is Magic OK For Christians?

Assumes facts not in evidence. If you had asked, 'Ever wonder why the writers and editors of these texts take such a dim view or attempts at magic?' I would have answered, "No, I never much cared."

I am aware that this place is crawling with Wiccans, skeptics, atheists, agnostics, and Satanists. So I am not at all expecting agreement.

I am just expressing.
I hope you don't mind.


BTW
Actually, God's hatred of witchcraft goes back before the Christian arrived as is evident by the following declarations:


2 Kings 9:22
When Joram saw Jehu he asked, "Have you come in peace, Jehu?" "How can there be peace," Jehu replied, "as long as all the idolatry and witchcraft of your mother Jezebel abound?"



2 Chronicles 33:6
He sacrificed his sons in [ 33:6 Or [ He made his sons pass through ] ] the fire in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, practiced sorcery, divination and witchcraft, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the LORD , provoking him to anger.

Micah 5:12
I will destroy your witchcraft and you will no longer cast spells.

Nahum 3:4
all because of the wanton lust of a harlot, alluring, the mistress of sorceries, who enslaved nations by her prostitution and peoples by her witchcraft.

NIV

So you see, when Christianity arrived it was the same God repeating what he had already been saying for thousands of years.

 

[Benguin]

Well I was just asking for clarification.

I'm sure you'll understand that from my perspective it is all just magic (ie, paranormal or trickery). But thanks for pointing out how you differentiate.

Would it be impossible for any of these wicca to perform magic equitable with moses should be coherent with an aim or cause you have sympathy with?

 

[Skeptical Greg]

The source of their power was evil.

And we all know who created evil, don't we?

 

[Scot C. Trypal]

Sure you could say that God was the source for his followers, but, correct me if I’m wrong, I think witches feel the same way about their god(s).

If a pagan has supernatural power from invoking their god(s), and a Christian does too, how do you call one magic and the other not?

I mean, Moses strikes a rock with a stick and water flows out. As you said, he performs miracles right along with pharos’s magicians (On an aside Radrook, do you think pagan witches, if skilled enough, can today do stuff like turn rivers into blood as they do in Exodus?). Samson has hair that gives him strength. Balaam talks with his donkey. Jesus spits in a man’s eyes and his blindness is cured. Those with strong faith are to be able to do all sorts of supernatural acts from resisting poison to a sort of tree telekinesis . All this to me, a person who doesn’t believe in Christianity or Wicca, falls into the category of magic.

In this way, though I'd think it odd, isn't there room left for Christian "witches" who perform their miracles with God as their source?

 

[Wolrab]

Why bother asking the question?

 

[Radrook]

Well I was just asking for clarification.

I'm sure you'll understand that from my perspective it is all just magic (ie, paranormal or trickery). But thanks for pointing out how you differentiate.

Would it be impossible for any of these wicca to perform magic equitable with Moses should be coherent with an aim or cause you have sympathy with?

I understand that others have different perspectives and I respect everyone's right to decide what or what not he will or will not believe. I also do appreciate the calm logical inquiry you submit about whether those practicing magic can perform miracles with God's power. From a Christian viewpoint the answer must be no.

Why?
Because God does not work through those who do things contrary to his clear instructions. Since he clearly instructs us not to practice the magical arts, then to do so is disobedience. God takes a very dim view of disobedience to clear instructions.


King Saul lost his kingship because was repeatedly disobedient. He refused to listen to military instructions. He did not wait for Samuel to arrive in order to offer sacrifice but offered it up himself. Later after his kingship was lost anyway, he compounded his error by consulting a spirit medium.

Saul was never forgiven for it.

Samuel 15:22
But Samuel replied: "Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in obeying the voice of the LORD ? To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better than the fat of rams.


This obedience requirement is still in effect.
Jesus told us that if we love him we will obey what he tells us to do.

John 14:15
"If you love me, you will obey what I command.

We are also told tat those receiving the holy spirit through which miracles are performed are persons who are obedient to God .

Acts 5:32
We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."

So based on all these factors, I am forced to say the answer is no.

 

[thaiboxerken]

LOL. This is silly. It's like a discussion on the proper use of the Force.. what exactly is Dark usage vs. Light usage.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Radrook: Provide evidence for your point without citing the bible.

Hans

 

[Brahe]

Ever wonder WHY GOD takes such a dim view of attempts at magic? There are good reasons.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that god does take a dim view of attempts at magic. Let's hear those good reasons. When I've asked Christians before, they usually respond with one of the following:

(1) It just is, stop asking questions and accept my assertions uncritically! Ah, good ol' christianity.com.

(2) The source of magic is Satan. This assumes magic is nothing more than a prayer to Satan. Which is ironic, considering that nearly all Christians will vehmently oppose the characterization of prayer as "magic."

(3) Magic is inherently evil. This is truly a bizarre answer as magic is depicted as nothing more than a tool that is morally neutral by itself. Our knowledge of chemistry can also be used to make bombs and bullets, but it'd be difficult to find someone stupid enough to characterize chemistry as inherently evil and thus against god, so why should magic be characterized this way?

One more related question, Radrook: what do you think of the efficacy of magic? When I've asked this question of Christians before, few of them believe that it works (and thus do not believe god has much view at all on the subject). Those that do are unwilling and unable to produce evidence supporting this claim, and fall back on, "if magic didn't work, then why would god oppose it?" So what's your position on the issue?

 

[thaiboxerken]

I think mutants should have to register with the government because their superpowers are inherently evil!!

 

[Brahe]

I also do appreciate the calm logical inquiry you submit about whether those practicing magic can perform miracles with God's power. From a Christian viewpoint the answer must be no.

Is anyone capable of performing miracles with god's power? What is the difference between performing miracles with god's power and magic?

 

[Suddenly]

I think mutants should have to register with the government because their superpowers are inherently evil!!

I agreed with this when I thought you said "mullets" instead of "mutants".

People with mullets should be required to register. Mutants, so far as they are a different class, I don't know.

So nevermind.

 

[Piscivore]

LOL. This is silly. It's like a discussion on the proper use of the Force.. what exactly is Dark usage vs. Light usage.

 

[Piscivore]

Re: Re: Is Magic OK For Christians?

... but it'd be difficult to find someone stupid enough to characterize chemistry as inherently evil and thus against god, so why should magic be characterized this way?

Amish.

 

[Dancing David]

You are missing the whole point.
Jesus, Moses, Peter, and others performed miracles and they were not condemned because the SOURCE of the power was God. It is not the miracle itself that is offensive.


Exodus 7:21
The fish in the river died, and the water became so foul that the Egyptians couldn't drink it. There was blood everywhere throughout the land of Egypt.

22
But again the magicians of Egypt used their secret arts, and they, too, turned water into blood.....

Obviously it wasn't God who was empowering the magicians to imitate on a limited scale. It was something sinister.

So it is the SOURCE of the power from whence it comes that is offensive.

Miracles are used by demons to deceive.
That's why Jesus said that though certain people who clsimed to be Christians performed great works, he still rejected them and called them lawless or evildoers.

Matthew 7
22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Obviously if these people were evildoers, and were still able to perform miracles, then the source of their power for their miracles was evil. In fact, demons were even cooperating by feigning being cast out in order to convince people that these evildoers were good.

The Devil is like Organized crime.
He hides behind a respectable front in order to operate efficiently.

Thus the Wicca and other such fronts have emerged.


The magic practicing priests of Egypt were able to imitate Moses up to a certain point. The source of their power was evil. S

So they are condemned while Moses is not.

Because there are forces out there striving to deceive us--we are told not to delve into such things for our own safety.

Does that clear it up a little?

Ooops Radrook, you just fell for the classic dualitic trap, perhaps unknowing.

A. The devil is as powerful as god.

B. The devil recieves his power from god.

C. God wishes for humans to fail and therefore puts obstacles in thier way.

D. God does not care about what the devil does.

E. God wants the devil to do what he does.

These are just some thoughts about the inherent nature of dualism, in option A. the devil becomes as powerful as god, not a very good idea. Then why doesn't god stop the devil.

B> God wants the devil to decieve people and therefore gives the devil the power to do so.

C> God may want us to love him of our own free will but testing people's love is the hall mark of an abusive personality. Asking people to not have sex and then making it so pleasurable , that is a barrier to enligytenment.

D> This gets god off the hook, maybe he doesn't care what people think or believe and tehre is no heaven or hell. So maybe god is indifferent to the evil caused by the devil

E> Goes along with the devil recieving his power from god.


The simple solution is there, god creates the universe but refuses to interfere after that.

All other solution end up making god so weak that he can't defend himself from the devil, or uncaring or deliberatly abusive.

Gnosticism is born, the god of Jesus is not the god of the OT.

 

[Blue Monk]

Boy, this is a dumb thread so naturally I have to throw in my two cents.

There’s no such thing as magic.

Problem solved.

That is unless you mean to imply that God really hates parlor tricks.