Is Lying to Someone for Sex, Assault? Max Clifford Case

[andyandy]

There is a thread in general terms discussing sentencing for this case - from what I've read (admittedly nothing more the newspaper reports) it does seem quite a harsh sentence.

A quick summary - Max Clifford, powerful PR man to the stars for decades has been found guilty of sexual assault - and sentenced to 8 years in jail. The Daily Mail had a couple of interviews with 2 of the women whose accounts led to his prosecution.

1 girl was 15 years old and an aspiring actress/model - Max Clifford told her he could make her a star, and then asked for various sexual favours in return (over about 3 months).

another girl was 18/19 - and Max did the same. There's no mention of any physical co-coercion, just the girls' belief that if she didn't that her career would suffer.

Now, there's a very large proviso here, because I don't know the full details - but based on what I have seen, it looks as though lying to someone in order to have sex with someone has contributed to a large chunk of Max Clifford's sentence. I can understand that he would be liable for sentencing in having sex with a minor (age 15) when in his 30s - but I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't normally get anywhere near 8 years for that.

So, what has contributed to this sentence? He definitely appears pretty sleazy, and used his position of power to get sex - but, well, won't that apply to rather a lot of people? Is it because he lied in order to have sex? Or because it was decided he was an "authority figure"?

There was some allegation another case involving a 12 year old - which obviously sounds much more serious, but I don't believe that this was considered during the trial, so can't have affected the sentencing.

Anyone of a legal bent able to explain this one?

Thanks

 

[Rat]

There was some allegation another case involving a 12 year old - which obviously sounds much more serious, but I don't believe that this was considered during the trial, so can't have affected the sentencing.

If I remember my scan of the sentencing correctly, it was certainly spoken of in some unpleasant detail in the summing up by the judge.

ETA: Articles 22-24 of this document. It's not very nice.

 

[Andy_Ross]

He got several sentences to run consecutively, they add up to eight years

 

[andyandy]

If I remember my scan of the sentencing correctly, it was certainly spoken of in some unpleasant detail in the summing up by the judge.

ETA: Articles 22-24 of this document. It's not very nice.

thanks for the link - I've just read through it. He definitely doesn't come across as a very nice man. However I'm surprised by the judge being able to take into account cases not considered by the court or not found guilty by the jury - is that common practice? Surely he would be considered innocent on those cases not brought or not proved?

I'm still not clear as to which part of his actions on some of the women (not the 15 year old girl) is leading to it being considered an offence - the lying to them? abuse of power? Most of the accounts seem to be consensual insofar as he asked them to do something and they did - even if they did it on false pretenses. Is that in itself illegal?

 

[andyandy]

having read through the sentencing part again it looks like the sentences are for the counts where there was some degree of coercion or not implied consent - so maybe that answers my own question....

 

[Professor Yaffle]

having read through the sentencing part again it looks like the sentences are for the counts where there was some degree of coercion or not implied consent - so maybe that answers my own question....

Yes, he was not found guilty on all counts. The ones where he was found not guilty were used as evidence of bad character because while they didn't rise to the level of criminal assault, they were part of a pattern of behaviour that the judge thought was relevant to sentencing.

 

[Bob001]

......
1 girl was 15 years old and an aspiring actress/model - Max Clifford told her he could make her a star, and then asked for various sexual favours in return (over about 3 months).

another girl was 18/19 - and Max did the same. There's no mention of any physical co-coercion, just the girls' belief that if she didn't that her career would suffer.
.....

In the U.S. age 15 would make it statutory rape no matter what he did or didn't say. Threatening to harm somebody's career for sex sure sounds like rape, even if it wasn't violent. At the very least it's blackmail. He was convicted of multiple counts of "indecent assault," not lying. And apparently he has a history of similar behavior. Why do you think the sentence is harsh? Some people might think it was too light.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-27259318

 

[colander]

In the U.S. age 15 would make it statutory rape no matter what he did or didn't say. Threatening to harm somebody's career for sex sure sounds like rape, even if it wasn't violent.

Yeah, I'm not sure how the OP figures that doesn't count as coercion.

 

[TimCallahan]

If I remember my scan of the sentencing correctly, it was certainly spoken of in some unpleasant detail in the summing up by the judge.

ETA: Articles 22-24 of this document. It's not very nice.

"Not very nice," is putting it mildly. The creep sexually assaulted a 15 year-old girl. He's a sex offender, plain and simple. It's a pity the judge couldn't include castration in the sentence.

 

[tyr_13]

Offering to advance someone's career in exchange for sex is wrong whether or not it is a lie or if the person can even accomplish it. There are lots of statements that would be wrong, corrosion, and method to rape regardless of if they're lies or credible statements or not. One that comes to the top of my mine (and someone tried using on me years ago) was the implied threat to harm themselves if 'affections' were not given. A credible threat or not, that's still FUBAR.

 

[jimbob]

"Not very nice," is putting it mildly. The creep sexually assaulted a 15 year-old girl. He's a sex offender, plain and simple. It's a pity the judge couldn't include castration in the sentence.

I seem to recall blackmail as well.

I couldn't read beyond the

(paraphrase)

He told me there was a photographer in the bushes close enough to see every freckle...

 

[Bob001]

Yeah, I'm not sure how the OP figures that doesn't count as coercion.

From the story:

The judge said some of the offences would be charged as rape if they had happened today.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-27259318

This was way beyond "lying."

 

[andyandy]

Yeah, I'm not sure how the OP figures that doesn't count as coercion.

you could at least read the OP before commenting:

I can understand that he would be liable for sentencing in having sex with a minor (age 15) when in his 30s
My question was with regards to the other consecutive sentences he received.

 

[theprestige]

Aside from the details of this specific case, I'd say that in general lying to someone for sex is not assault.

Depending on the circumstances, it might be fraud or solicitation in some cases. If prostitution is illegal, the person providing sexual favors might also be liable for their part in the transaction as well (in which case, they probably can't sue for fraud).

 

[Giordano]

I do not know the law, especially in Great Britain. But clearly people below the age of consent can not give consent. No matter what. Simple.
Also imagine in a dark room someone lies and has sex with someone by claiming incorrectly to be their husband John; should that not be considered a form of sexual assault? Or one of two identical twins lies by claiming to be the other to have sex with the spouse of the second? Assault? I think so.

 

[colander]

you could at least read the OP before commenting:

I can understand that he would be liable for sentencing in having sex with a minor (age 15) when in his 30s
My question was with regards to the other consecutive sentences he received.

I am unsure what you think that has to do with my point, as coercion figured in all of the counts Clifford was convicted of.

 

[theprestige]

Also imagine in a dark room someone lies and has sex with someone by claiming incorrectly to be their husband John; should that not be considered a form of sexual assault? Or one of two identical twins lies by claiming to be the other to have sex with the spouse of the second? Assault? I think so.

For me, the general principle is based on the following distinction:

A person consents to sex...
... with a specific person
... ... for a specific reason

If it's the wrong person, whether by force or trickery, then it's assault.

If it's the wrong reason, then it's simply caveat emptor, unless existing fraud laws are applicable.

 

[squealpiggy]

Yeah, I'm not sure how the OP figures that doesn't count as coercion.

It's coercion clearly but I'm not sure how that applies to the law in the United Kingdom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_offences_in_the_United_Kingdom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_assault#England_and_Wales

It may be covered in Section 74 of the Sexual Offenses Act:

"5. Consent which is obtained through the use of fraud or force, whether that is physical force, threats, intimidation, or coercion, is ineffective consent."

I can't find this described in the Sexual Offences Act 2003 and it appears to have come from here

 

[Giordano]

For me, the general principle is based on the following distinction:

A person consents to sex...
... with a specific person
... ... for a specific reason

If it's the wrong person, whether by force or trickery, then it's assault.

If it's the wrong reason, then it's simply caveat emptor, unless existing fraud laws are applicable.

Not so easy to define:

How about, "Have sex with me because if you don't, I'll cut off your nose with this knife," Right person,wrong reason.

Or, if threatened violence makes a difference how about, "have sex with me or I will use my position at the bank to hide all your money from you."

Or just, "have sex with me or I will tell all the other kids in school you are.a slut." Or "Have sex with me or I will crush your career." Right person, wrong reason. Assault by lying? I think so. And in fact, legally fraudulent, too.

 

[Loss Leader]

Coercion, whether physical or psychological, is disallowed. Lying is perfectly legal. "I'm a producer," is legal. "If you don't have sex with me, I'll destroy your career," is not.

If I had to face an attempted rape charge every time I used a fake Australian accent when I was in college, I'd be in jail until humans evolved into pure energy.