Is it time to give Richard Gage what he wants?

[cantonear1968]

I believe a "new investigation" is the last thing in the world Richard Gage wants. Despite musings on this forum, he is not an unintelligent man and is certainly educated enough to achieve his architecture's license. It is for these reasons that, in my opinion, he HAS to know he is peddling junk science that would not (and has not) stand up to any real scrutiny. We've all seen him in debates: when faced with a logical question that illustrates his incompetency, his eyes will glaze over and he fall's back on his tried and true mantra "that's why we need a new investigation".

So is it time to give it to him? And that is the purpose of this thread. What if we gave Richard Gage what he wanted? (I am, of course, presenting this for discussion purposes only. I would never endorse the need or expense of a full blown congressional hearing). Would Richard Gage answer the call? Would he actually try to present his "evidence" in a televised event in front of experts and credentialed professionals who would quickly see through his presentation and embarrass him publicly and nationally? Or would he know his cash cow would be in jeopardy and avoid this at all costs? Would Steven Jones and David Ray Griffin show up to support him, or would they realize the danger this would present to their only means of income?

This, of course, begs the question: what would it accomplish? When the results come back unchanged, what real effect would this have on the so-called truth movement. Ryan Mackey has surmised in the past that there are very few fence sitters left on this subject. Interest in trutherism is at an all time low. Few people show up for rallies and the different factions have taken to turning on each other. So, what would a new investigation solve? If after 9 years people still hand wave past all the evidence of 9/11: hijackers, planes, fire, what would publicly embarrassing Gage from the evil NWO-run Government accomplish anyway? I predict very little!

I welcome your thoughts.

 

[Arus808]

Oh, he can get what he wants when he wants; he just has to be willing to pony up the millions of dollars to hold his investigation.

Nothing is stopping the truthers from holding their own investigations; they've had that ability since 9/12/2001

 

[ElMondoHummus]

Oh, he can get what he wants when he wants; he just has to be willing to pony up the millions of dollars to hold his investigation.

Nothing is stopping the truthers from holding their own investigations; they've had that ability since 9/12/2001

This is a good point. Nothing stopped Purdue, WPI, The UC Davis Delta Group, Arup, etc. from conducting their own investigations.

Gage just wants to continue to sit on the pot. That way, he can continue on with this schtick.

 

[cantonear1968]

Exactly! As has been pointed out several time, independent investigations have been conducted and concluded with the same results. To no avail with Gage or the truthers.

So why is it Gage needs a "congressional hearing" (which is something new i heard him say. Before it was just an "independent investigation"; now it seems to be specific)? Is it simple goal post moving on his part; move them to something he knows is unattainable so he can continue his snake-oil selling? But again; what if we gave it to him? Would he actually show up? As I stated at the beginning, I think a "new investigation" is the last thing he wants.

 

[cantonear1968]

I think this opens up some sub topics; such as, what would it take for you to give up being a truther (or debunker)?

Since that is the call, a new investigation, and it's only truth they are after, what would it take for a truther to accept that truth? What evidence do you feel is out there has NOT been investigated conclusively, thus the need for a new investigation? And what would it take for you to accept those findings and give up your 9/11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB handbook? Maybe that's too broad a question but I'd be interested in hearing a response.

I will even go first: I would be willing to give up debunking and endorse a new investigation if the Harrit/Jones paper were independently verified and confirmed. If it were proven it is what they say it is: military grade nanothermite, then I would have a hard time putting that aside. That's not hand waving past all the other evidence which disproves CD, but I would not be able to fully accept things if that were not answered.

 

[Oystein]

...
So why is it Gage needs a "congressional hearing" (which is something new i heard him say. Before it was just an "independent investigation"; now it seems to be specific)? Is it simple goal post moving on his part; move them to something he knows is unattainable so he can continue his snake-oil selling? ...

Maybe he wants the non-experts and non-scientists from Congress, knowing that any jury of scientific peers would rip him to pieces, hoping that politicians are easier to fool?

 

[beachnut]

...
I welcome your thoughts.

A new investigation would ruin his gravy train. He make 70k spreading delusions and stupid claims.

A&E needs to be retitled, Gage's Travel Club for Woo.

Gage can take 100,000 of his money and get someone to teach him physics and critical thinking, he has the snake-oil salesman act down. Or use his 200,000 in donations to do his own new investigation, putting fools money to work.

 

[dc1971]

Oh, he can get what he wants when he wants; he just has to be willing to pony up the millions of dollars to hold his investigation.

Nothing is stopping the truthers from holding their own investigations; they've had that ability since 9/12/2001

They could all pool their resources in order to do so. They haven't! They don't want to!

 

[Brainster]

The problem is that the goalposts can always be moved. If it's a congressional investigation, they can argue that the government shouldn't be involved. If it's a private investigation, they will argue that it doesn't have subpoena power. If the thermite claims are investigated, the space beamers will say that's just a distraction. If the space beams are investigated, the warnings crowd will moan about the diversion. If the warnings are investigated, the CIT-heads will want NOC. If NOC is investigated....

 

[ozeco41]

...I welcome your thoughts.

Gage would not want a "new investigation" and would decline to agree on "terms of reference". So if asked what those ToRs should be he would equivocate and if not asked he would claim they were not valid.

As for the general run of truthers - they would simply shift the goalposts. I cannot predict where but shift the goalposts is one of their most successful tactics.

Then the so called truthers here are more likely trolls than truthers BUT they are dependent on 9/11 interested members responding to their chain jerking and baiting tactics. They have a proven ability to misread anything put to them so they can twist it into more trolling.

100% ignore them is the only viable mechanism I can see - and that won't happen will it?

 

[cantonear1968]

Then the so called truthers here are more likely trolls than truthers BUT they are dependent on 9/11 interested members responding to their chain jerking and baiting tactics. They have a proven ability to misread anything put to them so they can twist it into more trolling.

You touch on something that I've mentioned before: truthers are no longer interested in "winning" the argument, because 9 years of failure have shown them they have nothing to win with. But if they can argue to a draw, then that is as good as a win. It's certainly better than a loss. And moving goal posts, changing the subject, accusations of straw mans, red herrings, logical fallacies when that is what they practice, seems the best they can offer and all they can accomplish.

Which is maybe the answer to the question I posed on Gage. He doesn't want an answer to any of the questions he poses (even though they have been given to him ad nauseum). If he can continue to move the goal posts, change the subject and obfuscate the matter, he can continue to make trips to Japan and Jamaica.

So no. A new investigation is the last thing Gage wants.

 

[The Platypus]

All Gage wants is more sheep to fleece.

 

[alienentity]

At least make sure it's strapped on before giving it to him....

 

[alienentity]

I believe a "new investigation" is the last thing in the world Richard Gage wants. .... If after 9 years people still hand wave past all the evidence of 9/11: hijackers, planes, fire, what would publicly embarrassing Gage from the evil NWO-run Government accomplish anyway? I predict very little!

I welcome your thoughts.

On the topic of investigation, he's interested in milking this thing for the rest of his career, I guess, but would an investigation be like the dawn of a new day to an apocalyptic end-time person? Probably not. They'd all just behave like the weasels they are an wriggle out of any refutations of their claims.
I guarantee they'd still claim that the investigation wasn't thorough, was tainted, or something like that to disqualify it and renew their calls for yet another 'investigation'.

The only thing that would prevent this is if DRG's teams of voice-morphing murderers 'fessed up and provided documents. Otherwise any investigation will be found, shall we say, 'lacking'.

 

[slojoe]

This, of course, begs the question: what would it accomplish? When the results come back unchanged, what real effect would this have on the so-called truth movement. Ryan Mackey has surmised in the past that there are very few fence sitters left on this subject. Interest in trutherism is at an all time low. Few people show up for rallies and the different factions have taken to turning on each other. So, what would a new investigation solve? If after 9 years people still hand wave past all the evidence of 9/11: hijackers, planes, fire, what would publicly embarrassing Gage from the evil NWO-run Government accomplish anyway? I predict very little!

I welcome your thoughts.

I fear that a Congressional investigation would revitalize the Truther movement. I can see it billed as McCartyesque persecution of the noble truth seekers when they get shellacked by scientists, press, and skeptical questioning.

Alienation from the majority has proven an effective way to bind cults together before, and these people already see themselves as having taken the red pill, separated from the Sheeple by their "awareness."

But that's just speculation.

As for my own investigation wishes? Trying Khalid Sheikh Mohammed might be a good start.

 

[The Big Dog]

attention?

 

[R.Mackey]

I believe a "new investigation" is the last thing in the world Richard Gage wants.

I disagree. What Richard Gage ultimately wants is simple: money. A "new investigation," whatever form it takes, would help him get it.

Let's be honest here. The Truthers will never shut up, at least not the visible ones. Not the ones who have invested so much time and money, and have effectively boxed themselves into a corner attaching their lives and reputations to it. Gage is one of these. He quit his job, a respectable one, and now shills for himsel-- ah, I mean the Truth Movement, full time.

So what effect will a "new investigation" have? Will it shut them up? Will it finally convince them they've had it all completely wrong all these years? Of course not. There have been lots of investigations, all to no avail. And most of the mistakes they make are so pathetic that no investigation is even required in the first place.

What a "new investigation" would actually do is two things: First, create the illusion of controversy. And second, it would embolden the remaining Truthers to feel like they've actually accomplished something, or at the very least to claim they did. Recall that Gage once told people that the NIST WTC 7 investigation was delayed because of him. Utter malarkey, but we're used to that by now.

Gage is a full-time Truther. He has no other job. He draws a significant salary from his non-profit, and has enough money left over to fund travel, swag, glitzy ad campaigns that could just as easily fund experiments, consultations and independent review, and publication costs -- yet he chooses not to. He allegedly has hundreds of scientifically trained people backing him up, yet over the course of several years now they have chosen not to produce anything except PowerPoint garbage. He attends conferences regularly, but rather than submit and present conference papers he puts up a booth in the vendor section. He's been destroyed in debate by everyone from Gravy to Kim Hill, yet he clamors for more debate.

By his own choice, he is not participating in any scientific investigation. We owe him nothing. We should, therefore, give him nothing.

It's his life to waste. Not our problem.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

I agree with Ryan here, but for reasons above and beyond the ones he enumerated. The main one is this: He hasn't met the threshold for requiring a new investigation. All of his points have been refuted; furthermore, the basis of his disinformation has been shown to be rooted in distortions and deliberate falsehoods, not actual facts. So quite literally, he has proven no aspect of the NIST report, or any other element of established history to be wrong.

Because no element of the NIST report, the 9/11 Commision report, or any other aspect of September 11th history has been established by him to be inaccurate, why should his demand for a new investigation be granted? He must demonstrate that the results of the current investigation are lacking first. And he has failed to do this.

And no, confusing some gullible people in society into thinking that his distortions of history are factual is not the threshold for injecting doubt into the accepted narrative. Taking unambiguously accepted facts and demonstrating that conclusions drawn from them are incorrect is. He cannot put up a silly notion - for example, the free fall myth - and use that to bludgeon his way into a new investigation because the very basis of doubt created by the notion of free fall is incorrect from the get go. All a new investigation would result in is illuminating how truthers have totally miscast and misunderstood the first sets of conclusions. Therefore, conducting a "new investigation" is a hideously inefficient way to highlight the fact that a small group of individuals have deluded themselves. That can be demonstrated for free, simply by casting light on their falsehoods.

In short, before Gage can legitimately demand a new investigation, he's got to show what's incorrect about the conclusions drawn from the completed ones (plural). And to do that, he'd need to understand what those conclusions truly are to begin with. He hasn't even achieved that yet, let alone put himself in a position to start working on the first point.

So, no, he shouldn't have his demand fulfilled. It would have it's roots based in a set of lies, those lies being the list of truther distortions he subscribes to. And validating a lie by dint of government action being taken on account of those lies is no way for society to act.

 

[Sabretooth]

If I were in Gage's position, I'd be embarassed to even show my face in public after that train-wreck of a conference he held back in September of 2010. We talked about it as it happened here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185111

He even admitted to inviting 400 Government Science Advisors...none of which showed up.

In all, IIRC, there were about 15 people in the audience...all of them truthers.

The lead up to the conference was that he had "new evidence" of CD. Turned out that he had absolutely nothing new to add to his garbage. He repeated all the same crap he has been spewing since 2006.

Does anyone have a link to that conference? Didn't some crazy lady ask about DEW's? I wonder if that was Judy Woo in the flesh?

 

[NoahFence]

Now if Gage gets his new investigation, we can assume it'll have to include evidence gathered by the FBI, CIA, NIST, etc..etc..etc...

Government Organizations.

Therefore, in twooferville, it'll still not be sufficient. The government will have to be involved somehow - removing the "independent" part from the investigation.

As has been said, why not just do a BIASED investigation, using only twoofers? He's got the money apparently. Stealing from his people.