Is Islam a Totalitarian Ideology?

[Puppycow]

I see no logical reason to believe that Islam is any more or less compatible with democracy then Judaism, Christianity, or Buddhism. Germany, Spain, and Italy were Christian nations but totally embraced Fascism. Russia was devotely Orthodox Christian but embraced Communism. Meanwhile Muslim Turkey is a democracy.

China is mostly Buddhist but they are a dictatorship. Lebanon is mostly Muslim but is way more of a democracy then Buddhist North Korea or Catholic Cuba.

Those who seek to claim that Islam is uncompatible with democracy while the other religions are...are just ignoring the facts, history, and reality.

I agree with that, but that isn't really the point I'm trying to make. I believe that there have been Totalitarian Christianity-based theocracies in the past and other religious theocracies. But today, the only theocracies approaching totalitarianism that I am aware of, are Islamic (unless Juche is considered a religion).

To me, the most nefarious aspect of totalitarianism is state (or church) control of speech and access to information sources. If people with free access to information willingly choose a certain religion, I don't mind. It is when there is no alternative that I am alarmed.

 

[Elind]

I see no logical reason to believe that Islam is any more or less compatible with democracy then Judaism, Christianity, or Buddhism.

Read a little more about what Islam (the Koran) actually says on the subject Logic has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

Germany, Spain, and Italy were Christian nations but totally embraced Fascism. Russia was devotely Orthodox Christian but embraced Communism. Meanwhile Muslim Turkey is a democracy.

Churches/Religions are based on control of the flock. They go were the power is. Political leaders come and go, the churches and the preachers/imams etc. will always be there afterwards.

Turkey is the exception in the Muslim world and it is only because one man forced modernity on them essentially at the point of a gun. If you haven't been paying attention, the current government is chafing at the bit to bring back the good old days.

China is mostly Buddhist but they are a dictatorship.

Buddhists say they are not a religion, I think I've heard. More a way of life, like Scientology but more refined over the millennia. Proves nothing.

Lebanon is mostly Muslim but is way more of a democracy then Buddhist North Korea or Catholic Cuba.

Lebanon is a soon to be non democracy, thanks to Islam. The majority of Muslims are Hizbullah, who don't appreciate sharing power with anyone, and they are becoming a majority because they breed like rabbits. How you make this an example of anything I don't know.

Those who seek to claim that Islam is uncompatible with democracy while the other religions are...are just ignoring the facts, history, and reality.

I disagree. As has been pointed out elsewhere, your grasp of reality, not to mention history, sounds like it comes from comic books.

 

[Puppycow]

The question is whether the RELIGION is totalitarian; or rather whether it is more totalitarian than some others. Personally I think yes, because of the 5 times daily prayers, the fact that prayers should be conducted with others if present, and all the other countless prohibitions and admonishments from food to how wipe your butt. I've seen it and it's totalitarian; and much more so than what the "government" says.

Yes, that's what I was trying to get at. I've seen on video a man claim that he would kill his own son if his son did not believe in the religion, because, he claimed, unbelievers do not deserve to live. Surveys in Arab countries indicate that less than 1% respond that they don't believe in God. To me this indicate that there is, in practice, a very strong compulsory aspect.

Why did you not bring in Afghanistan under the Taliban as an example of the purest form of religious totalitarianism I can think of?

Good point. In my OP, I had actually forgotton about them. Perhaps because they have been overthrown (for now at least). But that's a good third modern example of a totalitarian islamist theocracy.

 

[Lonewulf]

Buddhists say they are not a religion, I think I've heard. More a way of life, like Scientology but more refined over the millennia. Proves nothing.

I'm not quite sure why they couldn't be a religion.

They have a system of beliefs, based on the Hindu Buddha.

They have rituals, for personal cleansing, as well as meditation and the like.

I mean, they have the rituals and the beliefs. I'm not quite sure how you can say they aren't a religion. How do you define "religion"?

 

[egslim]

Read a little more about what Islam (the Koran) actually says on the subject Logic has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

A few years ago I read the bible to learn about christianity and christians. In practice however it turns out that by far most people who consider themselves christians behave entirely different from how I would interpret the bible to say they should.

Inconvenient sections are ignored, very creatively interpreted, considered symbolic or openly described as outdated. Beliefs are more based on culture and bias than on a literal interpretation of what the bible says. New bible translations are even modernised to (slightly better) reflect modern beliefs.
People follow religion, but succesful religions follow the people as well.

I expect muslims can do the same as christians.

 

[Invidious]

I disagree. As has been pointed out elsewhere, your grasp of reality, not to mention history, sounds like it comes from comic books.

Keep it clean. If I see any further biting or eye gauging, I'll tell Mom & Dad.

 

[Elind]

Yes, that's what I was trying to get at. I've seen on video a man claim that he would kill his own son if his son did not believe in the religion, because, he claimed, unbelievers do not deserve to live. Surveys in Arab countries indicate that less than 1% respond that they don't believe in God. To me this indicate that there is, in practice, a very strong compulsory aspect.

Individual anecdotes won't make the argument, but it is true that a religion that requires group participation to the extent that Islam does, keeps it's flock well in line. Take Ramadan. You can break fast at home if nobody sees you, but in public you would be stoned or arrested, in Saudi at least. Other places perhaps just spat upon.

In the final analysis however it is the everyday control of ritual, from personal hygiene to personal relationships that rules. Read something like the religious advice section of the Arabnews.com for a while and you will see what I mean, and that is a liberal rag.

 

[Elind]

I'm not quite sure why they couldn't be a religion.

They have a system of beliefs, based on the Hindu Buddha.

They have rituals, for personal cleansing, as well as meditation and the like.

I mean, they have the rituals and the beliefs. I'm not quite sure how you can say they aren't a religion. How do you define "religion"?

I guess this is topic for a separate thread, and I'm sure there is one somewhere, but I'm a traditionalist thinking religion involves a supreme being, so I don't consider Scientology a religion either (it's only because they got tax exemption that our politicians say so, and that was on doubtful ground). However each to their own. I don't care if a Buddhist reader calls it a religion or a form of meditation, but I've never heard of a Buddhist saying he heard Buddha tell him/her to kill anyone.

 

[Elind]

A few years ago I read the bible to learn about christianity and christians. In practice however it turns out that by far most people who consider themselves christians behave entirely different from how I would interpret the bible to say they should.

Inconvenient sections are ignored, very creatively interpreted, considered symbolic or openly described as outdated. Beliefs are more based on culture and bias than on a literal interpretation of what the bible says. New bible translations are even modernised to (slightly better) reflect modern beliefs.
People follow religion, but succesful religions follow the people as well.

I expect muslims can do the same as christians.

I believe your conclusion to be wrong, in part because you compare the Koran and the Bible and conclude they are essentially the same, in part because the history of the religions is different.

If you insist on comparing Christianity and Islam, you must assume that most Christians read only the Old Testament. That perverted god is pretty similar to the one in the Koran (no surprise there, since Mohammed copied much of his spiel from ancient Christianity, just like Joseph Smith copied the Book of Mormon from all of them and more).

Muslims cannot do the same without creating the equivalent of the New Testament from the Koran, and that would mean expunging perhaps half of everything in it.

Are you sure you think that is a realistic scenario?

 

[Elind]

Keep it clean. If I see any further biting or eye gauging, I'll tell Mom & Dad.

OK. I rephrase. Sounded like it came from the bible.

 

[Lonewulf]

I guess this is topic for a separate thread, and I'm sure there is one somewhere, but I'm a traditionalist thinking religion involves a supreme being, so I don't consider Scientology a religion either (it's only because they got tax exemption that our politicians say so, and that was on doubtful ground). However each to their own. I don't care if a Buddhist reader calls it a religion or a form of meditation, but I've never heard of a Buddhist saying he heard Buddha tell him/her to kill anyone.

Well, I don't see why a thread is necessary. I see you as entirely wrong, but I'm not really willing to argue the subject. *Shrugs*

As far as I see it, when you have structure (officials, priests, etc.), rituals, and beliefs that involve spiritual beliefs, some form of afterlife (reincarnation, nirvana, whatever), and the like... then, well, it's so close to a religion I don't really need to even bother arguing over it.

As to whether or not a Buddhist has killed because a supreme being has told them or not... that's entirely irrelevant as to whether they're a religion or not. Religion is not defined as "some supreme being tells you to kill people". However, just because a supreme being doesn't "tell" them what to do, don't take that to mean that Buddhists don't let their religion decide their actions or their behavior. Just because you happen to *like* those actions or behavior does not mean that they are not influenced by religious belief.

Scientology also involves spiritual beliefs, an afterlife, rituals for "cleansliness", etc. As far as I'm concerned, it's a cult. The only difference between a religion and a cult is that one has standing in society. Otherwise, they're all the same -- and almost always involve people trying to gain power over other people through imaginary concepts.

And yes, I would call Buddhism a cult. It's just a cult that we're more "okay" with.

 

[Elind]

At one level I have no problem with what you say, but at another I think there is a fairly large difference between a religion that has a "spy in the sky" personal god versus a more deistic approach.

As to Scientology, it wasn't considered a religion by most Americans until the IRS granted them that tax status. The IRS??

Europeans still consider them just a money making organization and "cult" does not by itself make a religion.

 

[Lonewulf]

Europeans still consider them just a money making organization and "cult"

And this makes them different from the Catholic church, Protestant churches, or almost any other religious institution... how?

 

[Thunder]

=)

 

[saizai]

Are you asking if Islam is totalitarian, or if the theocracies of the countries you mention are totalitarian?

 

[Lonewulf]

Are you asking if Islam is totalitarian, or if the theocracies of the countries you mention are totalitarian?

The problem is the intertwined process of, if the church gains power, it almost always turns into a theocracy, I.E., a totalitarian state under that religion. Buddhism being an exception, but not Shinto (Or rather, not "State Shinto", as existed in WWI in Japan).

Like I said, religion is perfectly fine with me, as long as it has no power (in minds or in deeds).

 

[frank462]

Here's what the Quran says about government:

18:26 Say: Allah is Best Aware how long they tarried. His is the Invisible of the heavens and the earth. How clear of sight is He and keen of hearing! They have no protecting friend beside Him, and He maketh none to share in His government.

Sounds to me like Allah has decreed that Islamic countries must be theocracies.

 

[Invidious]

Here's what the Quran says about government:

18:26 Say: Allah is Best Aware how long they tarried. His is the Invisible of the heavens and the earth. How clear of sight is He and keen of hearing! They have no protecting friend beside Him, and He maketh none to share in His government.

Sounds to me like Allah has decreed that Islamic countries must be theocracies.

That doesn't really sound like it's talking about an earthly government/state...do you have a link for context?

 

[Puppycow]

Are you asking if Islam is totalitarian, or if the theocracies of the countries you mention are totalitarian?

The latter. You could throw in the Taliban as well.

Again, I believe there are also historical examples of Christian Totalitarianism. That would be, for example, when The Inquisition could have non-Christians tortured or take away people's children. Today there are no longer any Christian Inquisitions AFAIK, but there are still religious police in Saudi Arabia and Iran, and until recently in Afghanistan under the Taliban (in fact, I think there is still some kind of morality police, but I don't think it's as bad as under the Taliban anymore).

 

[Lonewulf]

The latter. You could throw in the Taliban as well.

Again, I believe there are also historical examples of Christian Totalitarianism. That would be, for example, when The Inquisition could have non-Christians tortured or take away people's children. Today there are no longer any Christian Inquisitions AFAIK.

Actually, there is. There are cases where religious-oriented "charities" will bring food and medical aid to groups of those suffering after a major tragedy...

...Just to turn away if the individuals don't renounce their previous religion and take on the new religion.

Sounds pretty much like the Inquisition to me. "Renounce your own faith, or we'll let you starve!"