Is homosexuality genetic?

[Patrick1000]

You are crazy dude!!

I'm watching a mini series called the Manns, about the writer Thomas Mann.
(The series is great, I highly recommend it).

Mann had four children, two of them were gay.
He himself seems to have been bi-sexual or gay.

This made me think that there might be a inheritable component to sexual preference.

The funny thing, if this is true, is that the repression of gay people has led to many of them pretending to be straight, procreating, and thus leading to more gay people.

I am straight, but growing up and living in SF, gay culture is a big time part of our mix here, our lives, our friends, our work, our city wide culture. Being gay is a state of mind. It is not something that can be, might be, found in DNA, anymore than say alcoholism or republicanism or liberalism or militarism or an artistic inclination, or being musical, can be found in one's complement of heritable biologic information. People may well be born this way, born gay, but if they are, it is something not to be "found in their genes", in the same way da Vinci's genius for science cannot be found in the details of his chromosomal constitution, or Baryshnikov's being built(mentally, emotionally) to dance can be found in his.

 

[bikerdruid]

I am straight, but growing up and living in SF, gay culture is a big time part of our mix here, our lives, our friends, our work, our city wide culture. Being gay is a state of mind. It is not something that can be, might be, found in DNA, anymore than say alcoholism or republicanism or liberalism or militarism or an artistic inclination, or being musical, can be found in one's complement of heritable biologic information. People may well be born this way, born gay, but if they are, it is something not to be "found in their genes", in the same way da Vinci's genius for science cannot be found in the details of his chromosomal constitution, or Baryshnikov's being built(mentally, emotionally) to dance can be found in his.

dude. intelligence and athleticism are genetic.
da vinci was genetically predisposed to brilliance, baryshinikov was genetically predisposed to be a dancer, and beng queer is likely the same.
wanna try again?

 

[Dessi]

I am straight, but growing up and living in SF, gay culture is a big time part of our mix here, our lives, our friends, our work, our city wide culture. Being gay is a state of mind. It is not something that can be, might be, found in DNA, anymore than say alcoholism or republicanism or liberalism or militarism or an artistic inclination, or being musical, can be found in one's complement of heritable biologic information.

Intelligence, musical affinity, and artistic ability, alcoholism are very strongly influenced by a persons genes.

People may well be born this way, born gay, but if they are, it is something not to be "found in their genes", in the same way da Vinci's genius for science cannot be found in the details of his chromosomal constitution, or Baryshnikov's being built(mentally, emotionally) to dance can be found in his.

I wouldn't doubt that SF's cultural attitudes are much different than we might have here in Nebraska, but its not clear what evidence you have in any way, shape, or form that homosexuality is a "state of mind".

It would be bizarre if sexuality, the most basic biological urge of any reproductive species on the planet, were just a figment of peoples cultural attitudes. People are gay independent of their cultural climate, which is why we see it notoriously anti-gay countries like Ghana. Seems very clear that the very strong concordance of homsexuality among twins and siblings, and relatively low occurrence of homosexuality in other families is a very strong indicator of a genetic rather than cultural component.

 

[Bad Lieutenant]

Seems very clear that the very strong concordance of homsexuality among twins and siblings, and relatively low occurrence of homosexuality in other families is a very strong indicator of a genetic rather than cultural component.

There is a very small 20% concordance among monozygotic twins. It's NOT genetic. Cultural values = environmental influence; but you didn't say that because, as you well know, twins and siblings share rarified and similar environmental (ie. familial) environmental influences.

You seem to be representing the PC agenda, against all the evidence, for some reason Desi. Perhaps you are the kind of person who believes Iraq was invaded because the coalition thought they possessed WMDs.

 

[Dessi]

I have to admit I didn't know the 50% figure would serve to illustrate the bias of Wikipedia when I posted it originally. It does make the case homosexuality's not genetic seem all the stronger though, when followed up with the 20% figure, because the 50% figure is still far lower than would occur if homosexuality were genetic.

Homosexuality is genetic. If it were not, homosexuality would occur at equal rates among identical twins as it occurs in fraternal twins and siblings. But it doesn't, it occurs at half the rate in fraternal twins, which is exactly predicted by genetic theories of homosexuality.

I'm completely open to the possibility that prenatal hormones can have an effect, which is more or less the same as saying gay people literally are "born that way". I would be interested to here what you think the alternatives are.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Prenatal environment, genetics and chance all seem to play a role.

 

[Dessi]

There is a very small 20% concordance among monozygotic twins. It's NOT genetic. Cultural values = environmental influence; but you didn't say that because, as you well know, twins and siblings share rarified and similar environmental (ie. familial) environmental influences.

I'm interested in which family influences you're talking about and the evidence you have which suggest that those particular influences can cause a person to be attracted to members of the same gender.

You seem to be representing the PC agenda, against all the evidence, for some reason Desi. Perhaps you are the kind of person who believes Iraq was invaded because the coalition thought they possessed WMDs.

I could care less whether you're an internet tough guy, a teenage smart ass, or just a troll. We're both adults here, can you have a discussion like one?

 

[Antiquehunter]

I don't have the specific bit of reference at hand, but I believe that the 'combination' of genetics and external / environmental influences & triggers is the general consensus. If I recall, I think Dawkins speaks to it in 'Unweaving the Rainbow' - I don't have my copy with me, but from memory he touches on it there.

For me, there isn't any issue of an 'agenda' or an axe to grind, it simply shows that for whatever reason we probably know more about the sexuality of other animals than we do about our own.

 

[Patrick1000]

Being Gay Is not About Same Sex Sex

dude. intelligence and athleticism are genetic.
da vinci was genetically predisposed to brilliance, baryshinikov was genetically predisposed to be a dancer, and beng queer is likely the same.
wanna try again?

Being Gay Is not About Same Sex Sex.

Being a DANCER!, in the deep sense of Baryshnikov, is a way of being, a way of life, something much much more profound than his athleticism, much more profound than his simply "dancing" in the sense of his moving well with/to music. Being a DANCER, in this complete/absolute sense, refers to the artist's essence. It is about something very much not physical.

The source from which Baryshnikov's talent flows, its headwaters, is rooted outside the corporeal realm, in the same sense a gay man's sexuality is rooted in something deeper than simple physicalities. A gay man loves another man. This is not about getting it on as much as it is about choosing a companion in one's dealing with the difficulties of the human condition. It is a deep issue, profound, and sex, physical stuff, is but a small aspect of something quite large, and quite frankly, not understandable in any conventional sense.

Da Vinci was not a talented artist because his brain was wired a certain way. His creative powers were grounded in a bedrock way way way outside this type of simple "he's got a certain kind of brain, a brain good for art", model, though certainly, he may well have had pretty good protoplasm. But his "gift" is rooted outside of the physical. It is not even something we can effectively deal with by way of metaphor, no matter how talented or insightful the writer is who attempts to do so, attempts to describe that which is flat out miraculous. These types of gifts, gifts of such stark magnificence, are things that dwell in the realm of the truly ineffable.

To say gay men are gay, gay women are gay, because they are wired a certain way, to root their sense of love, their sense for love, in such physicalities, is to admit, albeit indirectly, one hasn't the slightest understanding of this, our human condition.

 

[Alan]

Are you arguing for dualism or are you being poetic?

 

[Patrick1000]

I am somewhat literary by nature

Are you arguing for dualism or are you being poetic?

I am somewhat literary by nature. That is not necessarily to say my writing is "good", but my tools of expression include straight ahead writing, metaphor, pun, satire and other literary devices. Even when I am doing professional medical writing, I "employ" such tools. That is not the best word, "employ", because it might suggest to some there is an element of effort, which is not the case. It simply happens for me. I have been this way since I first "learned to write", first grade Catholic boys school. I am not kidding.

So if you call this being poetic, perhaps that is true, though it is how I "think". By that I mean, there is nothing contrived. There is no effort on my part. I wrote the above spontaneously, more or less. I did make a few corrections.

But this IS how I see and relate to my friends here and coworkers in San Francisco who self identify themselves as "gay". This is my truth about what I see, and it is so expressed because for me the world is for want of a better term, a literary/romantic one. Romantic, not in the sense of "romantic love", but in the sense of "romance in the term's literary sense.

 

[bikerdruid]

Being Gay Is not About Same Sex Sex.

as a queer man, i am very aware of that.
that does not preclude genetic propensities for being queer.

 

[Dessi]

Being Gay Is not About Same Sex Sex.

Being a DANCER!, in the deep sense of Baryshnikov, is a way of being, a way of life, something much much more profound than his athleticism, much more profound than his simply "dancing" in the sense of his moving well with/to music. Being a DANCER, in this complete/absolute sense, refers to the artist's essence. It is about something very much not physical.

The source from which Baryshnikov's talent flows, its headwaters, is rooted outside the corporeal realm, in the same sense a gay man's sexuality is rooted in something deeper than simple physicalities. A gay man loves another man. This is not about getting it on as much as it is about choosing a companion in one's dealing with the difficulties of the human condition. It is a deep issue, profound, and sex, physical stuff, is but a small aspect of something quite large, and quite frankly, not understandable in any conventional sense.

Da Vinci was not a talented artist because his brain was wired a certain way. His creative powers were grounded in a bedrock way way way outside this type of simple "he's got a certain kind of brain, a brain good for art", model, though certainly, he may well have had pretty good protoplasm. But his "gift" is rooted outside of the physical. It is not even something we can effectively deal with by way of metaphor, no matter how talented or insightful the writer is who attempts to do so, attempts to describe that which is flat out miraculous. These types of gifts, gifts of such stark magnificence, are things that dwell in the realm of the truly ineffable.

For another perspective, I agree, being gay is not necessarily about having gay sex. People can know and self-identify as being gay without ever having sex or having a romantic relationship in their life.

You're also correct that being gay is a small aspect of peoples lives. Gay people go to their day job, enjoy restaurants and movies, enjoy music, sometimes learn a foreign language, play sports, pay bills, raise kids, post videos of their cats on youtube, etc. Managing your sexual orientation isn't exactly a full-time job.

To say gay men are gay, gay women are gay, because they are wired a certain way, to root their sense of love, their sense for love, in such physicalities, is to admit, albeit indirectly, one hasn't the slightest understanding of this, our human condition.

I don't really think there's more to being gay than a predominate or exclusive sexual and romantic attraction to other members of the same gender.

I wouldn't attach any more abstract meaning to the label, mostly because people may not share the same beliefs as you; aside from their sexual orientation, I don't think there's any other characteristics or unifying set of ideals, philosophy, beliefs, or anything else shared between gay people. You can still define yourself that way

 

[Patrick1000]

My point is that is not at the root of the "state of mind"

as a queer man, i am very aware of that.
that does not preclude genetic propensities for being queer.

My point is that is not at the root of one's "state of mind", sexual orientation. Being athletic is a requisite for being a reasonably good dancer, as is being "musical", but self identifying as a "dancer" is rooted outside of one's athleticism. One's being gay is rooted outside of one's genes as is my fondness for the girl in my life.

 

[Patrick1000]

There is a lot to "romance" Dessi, don't you think?

For another perspective, I agree, being gay is not necessarily about having gay sex. People can know and self-identify as being gay without ever having sex or having a romantic relationship in their life.

You're also correct that being gay is a small aspect of peoples lives. Gay people go to their day job, enjoy restaurants and movies, enjoy music, sometimes learn a foreign language, play sports, pay bills, raise kids, post videos of their cats on youtube, etc. Managing your sexual orientation isn't exactly a full-time job.



I don't really think there's more to being gay than a predominate or exclusive sexual and romantic attraction to other members of the same gender.

I wouldn't attach any more abstract meaning to the label, mostly because people may not share the same beliefs as you; aside from their sexual orientation, I don't think there's any other characteristics or unifying set of ideals, philosophy, beliefs, or anything else shared between gay people. You can still define yourself that way

Thanks for the post Dessi. There is a lot to "romance" Dessi, don't you think?

 

[Dessi]

as a queer man, i am very aware of that.
that does not preclude genetic propensities for being queer.

(Does secret gay handshake )

 

[Tracy Dalziel]

Its only partly genetic. Scientists studying homosexuality say that a womans immune system may attack the male fetus and and damage some of the male hormone. This usually happens when the woman has had other male children.

http://youtu.be/yVliyerlQHE This video explains the latest theories.

Female homosexuality may be caused by an excess of male hormone in the womans womb and lesbians are usually the first oldest children in the family.

I'd question this, my (gay) twin brother is 8 minutes older than me and the eldest of my siblings and I know many of his friends were also first born or lone sons.

 

[Dessi]

Thanks for the post Dessi. There is a lot to "romance" Dessi, don't you think?

I'm not sure if there needs to be a comma between the words in the phrase "romance" Dessi. Is "romance" in that sentence an adjective or a noun?

If noun: I think almost everyone agrees that romance isn't the slosh of chemicals in your head giving rise to the feeling, there's intimacy, companionship, affection and many other things tied to it. Some people will go even further and attach a whole set of poetic ideals and abstractions to it, maybe even characterize it with ineffable awe, but I think those abstractions are intensely personal and vary with each person's experiences and poetic sensibilities.

If adjective: "Romantic Dessi" doesn't exist I am sexually attracted to women, but almost entirely aromantic. And pretty much habitually single. Its not that I'm voluntarily or involuntarily alone, its that I have no want or need for partnership at all.

 

[L.Y.S.]

It's not PC to say...no, it's buried by the gay affirming culture, that sexual orientation is fluid. This is because if it is fluid then people are understandably justified in attempting to change their sexual orientation for various reasons.



The "head in the sand" of this issue is of a similar level to the "Iraq had WMDs" debacle.

Sexuality is fluid and can change from environmental, social, or emotional pressures. Many people flip during certain situations. That isn't to say that their "primary" preference ever does change.

 

[Eddie Dane]

I'm reminded of an article I once read about researchers that could make rats gay by giving them hormones.
The researchers stressed that the experiment didn't describe relationships between people.

No **** Sherlock.
My gay friends living together for fifteen years and sharing their lives isn't the same as a rodent climbing on top of another rodent? You don't say.

But recognising that there are biological drivers behind human behaviour doesn't diminish love, or other forms of complex behaviour. In other words: what your neocortex does with that biological driver.

I know that I care for my children because people who care for their children increase their survival rate, thus creating more people who care for their children. It is an evolutionary advantage.
Does that describe my whole relationship with my children? I don't think so. That goes much deeper.