Is homosexuality genetic?

thaiboxerken said:
While the question of whether or not homosexuality is a choice or not is academically interesting, I think it should not play a role in determining the morality of homosexuality.
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I agree, which is why I am fine reading about it in the Science section. This thread would have a very different flavor if it were in Social Issues, Politics, or Religion.
 
It could be a servival mechanism that kicks in when overpopulation is viewed. This happens when rats overpopulate in a confined space.

This would explain why it seems gays tend to grow up in crowded cities.
 
Cuddles said:
That doesn't seem to follow. If gay men have brains similar to straight women, then a gay couple isn't a male brain and a female brain, it's two female brains. It's still two similar people, it's just that they both have brains more similar to straight people of the opposite gender. Your theory would only work if only one out of each couple had their brain different.
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Well, for a start it's probably not entirely correct to call it a female brain either. We don't really know to what extent the wiring is really like the opposite sex, we only know that _some_ of it is different. It could be all, it could be just the parts we imaged, but basically the only statement that can be objectively defended is that _some_ of the wiring in there fires like that of the (straight) opposite sex.

Also, obviously the parts which are learned behaviour and memories, will still be individual. A guy who has peed standing all his life and hes been taught to act like a guy, and is expected by everyone around to act like a guy, well, mostly still won't act and think entirely like a woman.

That said, as Mirrorglass alread said, you're not attracted to someone else's brains. Without repeating what was already said, here's a simple ad-absurdum: if it was just a matter of male brain and female brain attracted, sorta like electrons and positrons, then straight men would be attracted to gay men.

... which, come to think of it, would make a great excuse for all those fire and brimstone preachers who get caught with a male prostitute :p

But, anyway, I don't think it works that way.
 
HansMustermann said:
Well, for a start it's probably not entirely correct to call it a female brain either. We don't really know to what extent the wiring is really like the opposite sex, we only know that _some_ of it is different.
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A good example to support that point would be transsexuals vs. homosexuals. I think I've mentioned this in another thread that talked about gay males having female brains, but somehow, one has to account for the difference. I don't think the average gay male is dying to have his penis and testicals removed, the way the average male-to-female transsexual is. If they're both just male bodies with female brains, there shouldn't be that great of a difference.

That said, as Mirrorglass alread said, you're not attracted to someone else's brains. Without repeating what was already said, here's a simple ad-absurdum: if it was just a matter of male brain and female brain attracted, sorta like electrons and positrons, then straight men would be attracted to gay men.
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I'm reading the hypothesis a little differently, so that fault in the logic doesn't occur. Not sure if this is what was meant, but:

A guy with a female brain, like most female brains, is attracted to male bodies. Most male brains in male bodies won't be attracted back, since they'll see the male body and not be able to get past that to appreciate the female brain. So the only male body that would be attracted back would be another female brain in a male body looking for a male body.

Not sure I agree with that hypothesis, but there doesn't seem to be a logic flaw at that point.
 
Bill Thompson said:
It could be a servival mechanism that kicks in when overpopulation is viewed. This happens when rats overpopulate in a confined space.

This would explain why it seems gays tend to grow up in crowded cities.
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Well I did take an Anthropology class where the textbook mentioned that social acceptance of homosexuality tends to increase in societies (two African tribes were contrasted for example, I cannot remember what they were called) that have larger populations... but that's just social acceptance which would increase the number of individuals willing to openly live as homosexual, but not necessarily increase the gay population itself.

I think there was also something about agrarian societies versus nomadic and such. If I remember it right - the basic idea was if there's plenty of food, stability and infant survival rates weren't severely threatening to a population, then it would affect acceptance of homosexuality. But again, just acceptance.

I'm not too sure about the rats, but I did have to do a paper on behaviours of animals in captivity (specifically zoos) once, and I came across a few mentions (it wasn't my angle on the paper, so I didn't really pursue it) that homosexuality amongst animals in captivity are much higher than they might be in the wild. Bonobos, for one.

I'll try to look for links to something on this stuff if anyone is interested, but it probably wouldn't further the discussion on homosexuality being genetic, no?
 
Pup said:
A good example to support that point would be transsexuals vs. homosexuals. I think I've mentioned this in another thread that talked about gay males having female brains, but somehow, one has to account for the difference. I don't think the average gay male is dying to have his penis and testicals removed, the way the average male-to-female transsexual is. If they're both just male bodies with female brains, there shouldn't be that great of a difference.
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I think that's where the continuum comes in, where dominantly male transsexuals don't just have a female brain but have more of their physical make-up as female. Besides, if they're dying to have their bits removed, they're possibly only responding to a society where we only define and accept two distinct sexes. They may not feel the pressure to choose one or the other in a society that views transsexuals as a normal possibility that doesn't need to be "corrected". Ok, a lot of mays, I know. :boggled:


Pup said:
I'm reading the hypothesis a little differently, so that fault in the logic doesn't occur. Not sure if this is what was meant, but:

A guy with a female brain, like most female brains, is attracted to male bodies. Most male brains in male bodies won't be attracted back, since they'll see the male body and not be able to get past that to appreciate the female brain. So the only male body that would be attracted back would be another female brain in a male body looking for a male body.

Not sure I agree with that hypothesis, but there doesn't seem to be a logic flaw at that point.
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Yeah, you got it. Oh, relief. :D

I'm not purporting it to be fact, I wouldn't necessarily agree with it either. It would probably take a whole lot more research to actually end up somewhere really factual, no? ;)

I just figured it seemed a logical progression, but only in light of those two studies and what little other aspects of sex and gender I took into consideration and know about.

I'd welcome more links to read, if anyone has got good stuff to share. I'm half remembering a study where it was found that women could generally successfully identify that a man was gay from a picture of his face alone... This would seem to indicate that it's not only the brain that's female in a gay man, it translates into facial features as well.

I'll go see if I can dig it up somewhere.
 
Pup said:
A good example to support that point would be transsexuals vs. homosexuals. I think I've mentioned this in another thread that talked about gay males having female brains, but somehow, one has to account for the difference. I don't think the average gay male is dying to have his penis and testicals removed, the way the average male-to-female transsexual is. If they're both just male bodies with female brains, there shouldn't be that great of a difference.
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TBH I don't even see that as belonging to the same axis, but rather as an orthogonal aspect.

E.g., I remember reading about someone who had that surgery to become a lesbian woman. Obviously he must have been attracted to women, because, you know, that's kinda the whole point about the "lesbian" part. No, I still can't figure out the kind of logic that went into it, but there we go.

For a gay, I would _guess_ it's a matter of still being in a male body, still being perceived as a male, still being expected to act like a male, and basically being unattractive to 90% men too as a result. Some may choose to fix that by giving themselves a different body, some may just want to be accepted as they are.

I'd imagine it's not a step to be taken lightly, so I'm not surprised that most people don't do it.

Society pressures may also have something to do with it. If it's unacceptable to have sex with a man unless you have a female body, there's all the more incentive for someone to make themselves more socially acceptable. E.g., there are a bunch of them in Iran, where apparently gay sex is a major crime, but getting the surgery and being re-registered as a woman is acceptable. In fact, apparently even encouraged.
 
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HansMustermann said:
TBH I don't even see that as belonging to the same axis, but rather as an orthogonal aspect.

E.g., I remember reading about someone who had that surgery to become a lesbian woman. Obviously he must have been attracted to women, because, you know, that's kinda the whole point about the "lesbian" part. No, I still can't figure out the kind of logic that went into it, but there we go.

For a gay, I would _guess_ it's a matter of still being in a male body, still being perceived as a male, still being expected to act like a male, and basically being unattractive to 90% men too as a result. Some may choose to fix that by giving themselves a different body, some may just want to be accepted as they are.

I'd imagine it's not a step to be taken lightly, so I'm not surprised that most people don't do it.

Society pressures may also have something to do with it. If it's unacceptable to have sex with a man unless you have a female body, there's all the more incentive for someone to make themselves more socially acceptable. E.g., there are a bunch of them in Iran, where apparently gay sex is a major crime, but getting the surgery and being re-registered as a woman is acceptable. In fact, apparently even encouraged.
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Transsexuality is a good point. I suppose it would be a more reasonable hypothesis to say the part of a gay man's brain responsible for sexual attraction is like that of a standard female brain, while the part that forms his self-image can be either male or female. Similarly, a transsexual man views himself (or herself) as a woman, but can still be attracted to either men or women. Or both.
 
Mirrorglass said:
No, there's a perceived female-male couple inside both of the gay man brains. You see, even if the brain of a gay man is a female brain, if his body is male, he is perceived as a man. The point is his brain (according to this theory) perceives itself as a female brain. So while a gay couple would, indeed, be a pair of female brains, neither of the men - or the sexual part of their brains, to be spesific - would know that.
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Good point, I hadn't quite thought that through.

So we've established that gay men are actually lesbians trapped in a straight man's body who are attracted to other men who may or may not also be lesbians, but are almost certainly male or female and posses some kind of brain. I don't understand why people find this such a complex subject.:)

HansMustermann said:
That said, as Mirrorglass alread said, you're not attracted to someone else's brains.
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Unless they're gay zombies.
 
Mirrorglass said:
Transsexuality is a good point. I suppose it would be a more reasonable hypothesis to say the part of a gay man's brain responsible for sexual attraction is like that of a standard female brain, while the part that forms his self-image can be either male or female. Similarly, a transsexual man views himself (or herself) as a woman, but can still be attracted to either men or women. Or both.
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I'd think that would be the most logical explanation. One could argue that gay, um, social behavior? (not sure what to call it) is a social construct, but I'm not sure that one could go so far as to argue that if there were no social pigeonholes for male and female, transsexuals would be happy as they are. By gay social behavior, I mean whatever behaviorial traits homosexuals share, just as there's a heterosexual social behavior. If there were no Judy Garland or NASCAR, some facets of those social constructs would certainly be different, LOL.

Tempest_Rage said:
Besides, if they're dying to have their bits removed, they're possibly only responding to a society where we only define and accept two distinct sexes. They may not feel the pressure to choose one or the other in a society that views transsexuals as a normal possibility that doesn't need to be "corrected".
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Do you mean a society that defines and accepts two distinct sexes plus many variations, or a society that doesn't define either male or female at all?

As long as there's a social concept of at least two distinct sexes, I'd think many (most?) transsexuals would want to be the other one.

In a society with more than two genders, there might be many people who would see themselves as a third blended gender or who would see themselves as male but be attracted to males or the third gender.

But from what I've read, many transsexuals see themselves as "normal" members of the opposite gender and wouldn't be happy in a society that accepts them as third and fourth genders (male to female, female to male). They'd still want to be the other gender from what their birth appearance indicated, as long as society included a concept of that other gender.

They'd only be completely happy in a society where there was never a correlation between appearance and physical gender so some males had penises and some didn't; some women grew beards and some didn't, etc. so they could be fully accepted as completely female with a penis and a beard. Or possibly in a society where there was no concept of gender at all and having a penis or not was no more noticeable than having blue or green eyes. But both of those societies would be hard to imagine. Has such a thing existed?
 
Pup said:
They'd only be completely happy in a society where there was never a correlation between appearance and physical gender so some males had penises and some didn't; some women grew beards and some didn't, etc. so they could be fully accepted as completely female with a penis and a beard. Or possibly in a society where there was no concept of gender at all and having a penis or not was no more noticeable than having blue or green eyes. But both of those societies would be hard to imagine. Has such a thing existed?
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IOW, just be yourself, without anyone judging ANY behaviors or traits as "male" or "female". I am sure such society never existed, although I think it would be a desirable thing -- basically TRUE gender equality. I do not think it is possible as long as men and women remain two distinct sets. As I already posted before, true gender equality can only occur when technology allows complete, functional and fully reversible sex change to be done on one's self or with minimal assitance. IOW, it would be transhuman society by definition.
 
Pup said:
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Do you mean a society that defines and accepts two distinct sexes plus many variations, or a society that doesn't define either male or female at all?
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I meant the first one. The second... as someone else pointed out it would probably be true gender equality. But I'm aware it's too Utopian an idea.

Pup said:
As long as there's a social concept of at least two distinct sexes, I'd think many (most?) transsexuals would want to be the other one.

In a society with more than two genders, there might be many people who would see themselves as a third blended gender or who would see themselves as male but be attracted to males or the third gender.

But from what I've read, many transsexuals see themselves as "normal" members of the opposite gender and wouldn't be happy in a society that accepts them as third and fourth genders (male to female, female to male). They'd still want to be the other gender from what their birth appearance indicated, as long as society included a concept of that other gender.

They'd only be completely happy in a society where there was never a correlation between appearance and physical gender so some males had penises and some didn't; some women grew beards and some didn't, etc. so they could be fully accepted as completely female with a penis and a beard. Or possibly in a society where there was no concept of gender at all and having a penis or not was no more noticeable than having blue or green eyes. But both of those societies would be hard to imagine. Has such a thing existed?
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If we had examples of societies where being a transsexual was not only accepted, but considered by all to be perfectly normal, and had an equal chance of being considered desirable as they were, then we could say we knew what a transsexual would do. I don't know of any such society.

I have a hazy memory of some story how Native Americans were quite accepting of transsexuals.

A quick googling turns this up - http://etransgender.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=367

But uh, it's not very in-depth, it's some kinda blog or forum post. It also has no links to sources. It does mention that there were primitive methods of gender reassignment. One method utilizing a hard riding saddle... :covereyes
 
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