Is GM finished?

[davefoc]

Disbelief, did you perform the search Farmall suggested? Trust me. It's enough to make you scream.

GM has demonstrated they're willing to look the other way when they have a dealer doing dirty, as long as they can move the metal. Did you even read what I wrote about Performance Chevrolet? I mean, good God! How long was I going to be forced to stand there while the parts manager did NOTHING? I've even taken my truck there to be worked on. NEVER AGAIN!

For all the talk about quality service, you pay a premium price to be treated with disrespect, with contempt, just so they can take as much of your money as they can lay their hands on. GM damned well ought to know what's happening, and they have demonstrated that when they DO learn of this kind of crap, they just don't care.

When a Subaru dealer tried similar tactics with me, there were consequences to their actions. The salesman was canned, the parts people lost a couple of days pay, IIRC. Where do you think I might buy a new car, should I ever be able to afford one?

I read through some of the stories about Hearst Chevrolet. It seems pretty bad, but I'm not convinced it is completely relevant. When we bought our last Honda the experience was less than perfect. (Agreed on price, sudden appearance of overpriced crap that we didn't want, miscellaneous bad feeling ensued, eventually we only paid $500 for crap we didn't want instead of $1100). In defense of Honda our dealership experiences have been mostly very good.

The situation reminded me a bit of the way Sears used their good name to rip people off with their corrupt auto repair departments. Good companies sometimes decide to sell their good names for a profit. It pisses me off and I usually avoid them thereafter but it happens. Still I'm inclined to think about the GM bailout decision as a separate issue from this or at least see this as just one more issue in the general problem of automobile sales. Pissing people off is good for the short term bottom line but making people happy is costly and only has a payback in the fairly long term.

This is why I think any bailout of GM needs to be configured in such a way that the new managers of GM see their job as building a company for the long term. Any deal that doesn't succeed in producing that is just going to result in a massive loss of taxpayer dollars that will probably harm GM's chances of success more than it will help it.

 

[Disbelief]

Disbelief, did you perform the search Farmall suggested? Trust me. It's enough to make you scream.

GM has demonstrated they're willing to look the other way when they have a dealer doing dirty, as long as they can move the metal. Did you even read what I wrote about Performance Chevrolet? I mean, good God! How long was I going to be forced to stand there while the parts manager did NOTHING? I've even taken my truck there to be worked on. NEVER AGAIN!

For all the talk about quality service, you pay a premium price to be treated with disrespect, with contempt, just so they can take as much of your money as they can lay their hands on. GM damned well ought to know what's happening, and they have demonstrated that when they DO learn of this kind of crap, they just don't care.

When a Subaru dealer tried similar tactics with me, there were consequences to their actions. The salesman was canned, the parts people lost a couple of days pay, IIRC. Where do you think I might buy a new car, should I ever be able to afford one?

Nope. I am not in the business of searching out sources. I have listed sources when requested, so I would expect someone else to do so. You can continue to harp on one point about one dealer and some individuals at GM, but the data provided proves my point, not yours.

@davefoc One thing that is abundantly clear also, is that the huge changes at GM have totally been missed by everyone. Do you think a 45% reduction in executives since 2000 is a good step to becoming more efficient? How about the closing of so many facilities to get capacity in line with demand? While there is more work to do, that is exactly what GM was striving for when the economic crisis hit.

 

[Prometheus]

Have you heard of an 8 cylinder full-size van?

You are comparing the biggest SUVs with the smallest vans.

Wouldn't a more apt comparison be to compare a minivan with a mini-SUV, such as a Honda CR-V?

Very few people purchase full-size vans for use as a family car, whereas many families purchase full-size SUV's for that purpose.

I believe that comparing mini-van to full-size SUV is apt because they are generally comparable in passenger/cargo capacity, which is one of the primary factors that families look at in choosing a vehicle.

 

[joobz]

Here is a pdf from that same report:

http://www.oliverwyman.com/content_images/OW_EN_Automotive_Press_2008_HarbourReport08.pdf

As you can see, the difference between everyone has gotten smaller, though the Japanese have had the benefit of builing new plants and incorporating lean concepts from the beginning. GM did better than Toyota in vehicle assembly, while Toyota was better at stamping and engine assembly.

Thanks for the info. It's interesting to read, and note that I am for GM. It's the missmanagement which gets me angry.

With that said, you earlier statement, "yet are one of the most efficient automakers in the US including the Japanese" is false.
1.) Honda and Nissan did not participate in the report this year. It's not very impressive to be number 3 in a group of 6 auto manufacturer's when two of the 6 didn't participate.
2.) Honda's '07 total laborhours/vehicle rating was less than GM's 08 rating (31.6 vs. 32.3). the impressive point was Chrysler tieing Toyota's 30.4 rating.
3.) GM's plants reduced labor costs by taking buyouts and layoffs vs. Toyota maintaining full workforce.
4.) Toyota's efficiency was met while running more lines of vehicles. GM runs a limited number of car styles and still is not up to the standards of manufacturing.


In GM's Defense, they are improving. But they need to focus on the real problems. I agree perception is part of the problem, but it's the perception they earned.

 

[Elvis666]

So what? A six-cylinder minivan does get better mileage than an 8 cylinder SUV. That's exactly the point. Many people who purchased SUV's opted for the 8 cylinder version. I've never even heard of an 8 cylinder minivan.

I drive a 2002 Buick Rendezvous. It is a V6. As far as I know, the Rendezvous is available only with a V6 (No V8 in 2002, anyway).

Google is your friend.

 

[Roadtoad]

I drive a 2002 Buick Rendezvous. It is a V6. As far as I know, the Rendezvous is available only with a V6 (No V8 in 2002, anyway).

Google is your friend.

So is C'thulhu. But at least with C'thulhu, you get what you expect the first time, the only time.

 

[Toke]

I wonder if a restructuring of GM would involve seperating the pension and benefit to workers into a seperate fund.
One without funds.

 

[balrog666]

[snip]

One thing that is abundantly clear also, is that the huge changes at GM have totally been missed by everyone. [snip]

No, they've been totally ignored by most people.

And for good reason.

 

[Prometheus]

I drive a 2002 Buick Rendezvous. It is a V6. As far as I know, the Rendezvous is available only with a V6 (No V8 in 2002, anyway).

Google is your friend.

What's your point?

 

[davefoc]

I wonder if a restructuring of GM would involve separating the pension and benefit to workers into a separate fund.
One without funds.

A real restructuring would probably involve that. The pension holders are in the same boat as the bond holders except that the government will probably be more inclined to help them than the bondholders.

Trying to run GM with all its current liabilities in place is probably not possible. I just don't think GM managers can be that much smarter than the managers of their competitors who don't have these costs.

Failing to acknowledge this has led to a company that just mined capital to stay alive instead of a company focused on how to succeed in the marketplace. That is why the way the chapter-11-is-the-way-to-go folks might be right. Any money that is put into GM right now that isn't part of a plan to move to sustainability is probably counterproductive to the goal of creating a sustainable GM.

The biggest mistake the government has made so far, IMHO, is acting like a pre bankruptcy bailout is inevitable. If the government acts like a pre-bailout bankruptcy is inevitable why would any stakeholder give up anything? Just hang tough, get what you can from the government largesse and take your chances in the temporarily deferred bankruptcy in the future.

 

[joobz]

What's your point?

The point is that it is a dishonest comparison.

The comparison made in the article (a V8 SUV vs. a V6 minivan) is simply silly. V8 SUVs are hardly the norm. It's like comparing Yao Ming to the average Canadian, and then saying that Chinese are better Basketball players than Canadians.

 

[WildCat]

Very few people purchase full-size vans for use as a family car, whereas many families purchase full-size SUV's for that purpose.

I believe that comparing mini-van to full-size SUV is apt because they are generally comparable in passenger/cargo capacity, which is one of the primary factors that families look at in choosing a vehicle.

And apples can be compared to oranges because because they both are easy to prepare and store, which is one of the primary factors people use in choosing a fruit.

 

[Prometheus]

And apples can be compared to oranges because because they both are easy to prepare and store, which is one of the primary factors people use in choosing a fruit.

This is a red herring, and it completely misses the point. It isn't about comparing similarly powered vehicles, it's about comparing similarly utilitarian choices available to consumers.

 

[WildCat]

This is a red herring, and it completely misses the point. It isn't about comparing similarly powered vehicles, it's about comparing similarly utilitarian choices available to consumers.

"similarly utilitarian?

Would you like to compare towing capacity and snow capability? Or does utility favoring minivans the only metric you are willing to use?

 

[Prometheus]

"similarly utilitarian?

Would you like to compare towing capacity and snow capability? Or does utility favoring minivans the only metric you are willing to use?

Is it really that hard to understand that very few families want to purchase a car that's too small to transport all their members? Most mini-vans seat 6 or 7 people plus a good deal of cargo. Most small SUV's do not.

 

[joobz]

Is it really that hard to understand that very few families want to purchase a car that's too small to transport all their members? Most mini-vans seat 6 or 7 people plus a good deal of cargo. Most small SUV's do not.

Correct.
BUT, many of the SUV's that seat 7 people are available as V6s. V8s are hardly the standard at this size point.

Consider the following data:
The 3.5L V6 Honda engine is used in
the Accord, Pilot and odessey.
The Pilot and Odessey both fit 8 people.
the respective gas milage of these three lines are:
19/29, 17/23, 17/25.

In this comparison, one could argue that there is a slight improvement in gas milage between the minivan and SUV. However, these are not very significant comapared to that of the sedan.

 

[Just thinking]

This was not taught when I took Psych 101. Do you have a source to back up the claim?

Please read here ...

Research has found positive reinforcement is the most powerful of any of these. Adding a positive to increase a response not only works better, but allows both parties to focus on the positive aspects of the situation.

---

Also, personally, when I do something that reduces my tax burden, I consider that a reward for good behaviour. Why don't you?

First, you have to demonstrate that the desired choice is indeed better for the individual ... he/she wants to go that route on its own merrits. Second, I in no way will ever feel that a lack of punishment is a reward. (Do you after doing a good deed without receiving a reward regard that as a form of punishment?) Third, I, like many others, do not see how the best solution to a problem is to always look at a TAX as any sort of resolve. If you want people to do something, you have to make that the better (or best) of all other alternatives. If you feel the only way to do that is to impose a tax on what may very well be the better choice, you will not achieve a positive resolve. Come up with a better mousetrap if you want them to beat a path to your door ... do not hammer down the competition with artificial impediments; after all, that is what you want to show has been exceeded.

 

[Prometheus]

Correct.
BUT, many of the SUV's that seat 7 people are available as V6s. V8s are hardly the standard at this size point.

Consider the following data:
The 3.5L V6 Honda engine is used in
the Accord, Pilot and odessey.
The Pilot and Odessey both fit 8 people.
the respective gas milage of these three lines are:
19/29, 17/23, 17/25.

In this comparison, one could argue that there is a slight improvement in gas milage between the minivan and SUV. However, these are not very significant comapared to that of the sedan.

Point taken. Initially, I got off on this tangent due to Wildcat's suggestion that a mini-van is comparable to a small SUV like a CR-V. Also, while Pilot and Odyssey are nominally the same size and mileage, Odyssey actually has a lot more Passenger room and Cargo space--moreso even than a lot of full-size V-8 SUV's. That GM no longer even offers a mini-van at all just seems dumb to me.

 

[Prometheus]

Please read here ...

Thank you.

First, you have to demonstrate that the desired choice is indeed better for the individual ... he/she wants to go that route on its own merrits. Second, I in no way will ever feel that a lack of punishment is a reward. (Do you after doing a good deed without receiving a reward regard that as a form of punishment?) Third, I, like many others, do not see how the best solution to a problem is to always look at a TAX as any sort of resolve. If you want people to do something, you have to make that the better (or best) of all other alternatives. If you feel the only way to do that is to impose a tax on what may very well be the better choice, you will not achieve a positive resolve. Come up with a better mousetrap if you want them to beat a path to your door ... do not hammer down the competition with artificial impediments; after all, that is what you want to show has been exceeded.

I agree with some of this. However, I don't generally regard anything as a punishment or a reward per se unless it is administered in direct response to some behaviour. If gasoline cost $9 at the pump and diesel cost $3, I would most certainly prefer to drive a diesel, and the question of whether doing so were a punishment or a reward would never even enter my mind. Likewise with pretty much any purchasing decision I make. Are you suggesting that if that were the case, lot's of people would continue to buy gasoline vehicles just because they don't like being "punished"?

 

[WildCat]

That GM no longer even offers a mini-van at all just seems dumb to me.

They weren't offering them because no one was buying them.

There is the Chevy Uplander, which you can argue is or isn't a minivan.