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Is Democracy Overrated?

Jessica Blue said:
How can compulsion have benefits?

Think about it. Do you think a society could function well without any?
Yes, absoutely. Remember: "An it harm none, do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law." Anything else is tyranny.
Jessica Blue said:
I've already listed the benefits of compulsory voting in earlier posts.
I haven't seen any arguments regarding benefits. All you've come up with so far are excuses to curtail my liberties.
Jessica Blue said:
As to conscientious objection being permissable, then I object on human rights grounds, on behalf of the whole country: all 21+ million of you

[laughs]Go for it...I'll see you in court.
Let me get qualified in Oz, and you're on.
 
Well I didn't read the entire thread, I just wanted to voice support for democracy. On the issues of which you speak, that's more specific stuff I'd rather not get into. On compulsory voting, that's so obviously undemocratic I don't really see why its being argued. That's majoritarianism; not democracy. I'm glad we cleared that up though.
 
DialecticMaterialist said:
Well I didn't read the entire thread, I just wanted to voice support for democracy. On the issues of which you speak, that's more specific stuff I'd rather not get into. On compulsory voting, that's so obviously undemocratic I don't really see why its being argued. That's majoritarianism; not democracy. I'm glad we cleared that up though.
Yes, the curse of thread drift strikes again. :p
Jessica is our resident supporter of compulsion; I wonder what else she thinks should be compulsory. Jessica?
 
As to conscientious objection being permissable, then I object on human rights grounds, on behalf of the whole country: all 21+ million of you

Actually that's pretty tyrannical of you. Despite general satisfaction with our voting system you insist it is despotic and so would seek to undermine it on our behalf.

Jessica is our resident supporter of compulsion; I wonder what else she thinks should be compulsory. Jessica?

Yeah...I'm such a despotic tyrant that I support laws and regulations that make sense and are of benefit to society.

I haven't seen any arguments regarding benefits. All you've come up with so far are excuses to curtail my liberties.

I made them...and they weren't excuses, they were reasonable arguments. Either you didn't bother to read them or you dismissed them because you just didn't agree.
 
Compulsory voting is antithetical to a free society. Yo usay you support laws that are of benefit, but compulsory voting clearly isn't one of them. Your arguments have already been torn apart, and yet you still cling to them.
As to my hypothetical lawsuit, how can it be tyrannical? I'm not outlawing voting; I'm suing to prevent compulsion. You can still vote if you want to. What I'm doing is giving you the choice, a concept with which you're clearly unhappy.
 
Compulsory voting is antithetical to a free society
Any reasonable definition of a free society does not include no restraints or compulsions. All societies have them....its a question of degrees. I just dont see being required to have your name ticked off an electoral role once in a while as an outrageous violation of freedom.

Your arguments have already been torn apart, and yet you still cling to them
Such confidence. They weren't "torn apart" from my perspective.

As to my hypothetical lawsuit, how can it be tyrannical? I'm not outlawing voting;
No, but you're attempting to outlaw a system-of-voting which a democratic country has adopted and the majority of people have faith in, because you dont like it.

But I meant it lightheartedly.

Just a note to DialecticMaterialist

First, compulsory voting is tyrannical, because it violates freedom of conscience.
If you feel its your moral obligation not to vote you don't have to. As I've said many times in this discussion you are only required to have your named ticked at the electoral role, you are not required to make a legitimate vote so where is the violation of conscience? And, as I've just recently discovered, you can also seek exemption even from that, through conscientious objection. Requiring people to turn up at a ballot box every few years is not much to ask. Civic responsibilities as well as civic rights are also a cornerstone of a democracy.

I think we have a fairly good political system in Australia. We have a thorough representation in the senate and the house of representatives with proportional voting and preferential voting respectively. The fact that the overwhelming majority of people vote, means we have a more accurate representation of views in the community.

Mandatory voting is not essential in order to have a healthy political system...but the legal compulsion means we have come to view voting as a necessary civic obligation rather than something we can shirk if we feel like it. I think that has a positive, rather than a negative effect on a democracy.
 
Ziggurat said:
But you haven't provided any argument for WHY you can be compelled to file taxes but not file a vote, even a blank one.

Little late responding to Ziggurat, but I thought I'd point out that in the United States, the Congress is given the power to levy taxes by the Constitution, whereas there is no mandatory voting in that document. Those rights not held by the republic or the states belong to the people. So there you go.

Jessica Blue said:
I've already listed the benefits of compulsory voting in earlier posts.

In case anyone missed it, Ms. Blue's benefits of compulsory voting are below:

More people vote when voting is mandatory.
 
Jessica Blue said:
Any reasonable definition of a free society does not include no restraints or compulsions. All societies have them....its a question of degrees. I just dont see being required to have your name ticked off an electoral role once in a while as an outrageous violation of freedom.
And that's the problem. You just can't see it. Next you'll be deciding which church gets preferential treatment from the state. Because you can't see what's wrong with that, either. :rolleyes:
 
Some people in this thread keep insisting that voting is a citizen's responsibility while also insisting that people who don't want to vote can cast an invalid vote. Such a position is logically inconsistent, for if you really believe that voting is a citizens responsibility then it follows that casting an invalid vote - essentially a non-vote - is irresponsible. If you were consistent in your position you'd be arguing that it's just as wrong to cast an invalid vote as it is to not vote in the first place. You can try to skirt the issue of voters rights by arguing that persons who object to voting can cast an invalid vote, but such a position does not support the idea that voting is a citizens responsibility.

Regarding conscientious objector exceptions to mandatory voting, who the heck is the government to decide upon matters of my conscience? By including conscientious objector exceptions in mandatory voting statutes the government recognizes that it's wrong to force conscientious objectors to vote, yet for some strange reason they get to decide who is conscientious and who is not. To me, it seems like a token concession.

Finally I must question the assumption that greater participation in the electoral process is better on its own merits than lesser participation. More is not always better, and the quality and integrity of democratic decisions is more important than the quantity. A lot of people complain about apathetic voters, but what those people fail to consider is that apathy is often due to not having your interests represented in a polarized political environment.
 
Originally posted by Adrian Lopez[/i]
Some people in this thread keep insisting that voting is a citizen's responsibility while also insisting that people who don't want to vote can cast an invalid vote. Such a position is logically inconsistent, for if you really believe that voting is a citizens responsibility then it follows that casting an invalid vote - essentially a non-vote - is irresponsible. If you were consistent in your position you'd be arguing that it's just as wrong to cast an invalid vote as it is to not vote in the first place. You can try to skirt the issue of voters rights by arguing that persons who object to voting can cast an invalid vote, but such a position does not support the idea that voting is a citizens responsibility.
There's no conflict or inconsistency, because there is no encouragement not to make a legitimate vote. It's simply a fact that since voting is by secret ballot, there is no compulsion there to act against your conscience if you feel you shouldn't vote. Mandatory voting works by encouraging a sense of civic obligation to make a real vote, not forcing you to make one.


Finally I must question the assumption that greater participation in the electoral process is better on its own merits than lesser participation. More is not always better, and the quality and integrity of democratic decisions is more important than the quantity.
Yet compulsory voting does not preclude quality and integrity. What evidence is there that the quality and integrity of those democracies which have voluntary systems are better than those which do not? How good is the quality and integrity of those democracies which have low voter turnout?

If Australia abandoned mandatory voting it would likely have a deleterious effect on our democracy. The danger is that Australian democratic elections would deteriorate to the decrepit state of the United States electoral process.
 
Compulsory voting doesn't foster a sense of civic responsibility, it creates resentment. Even the Australian government understood that; they didn't introduce compulsory voting for anything so noble as to raise civic awareness. They did it to stop left-leaning unions, to which they were bitterly opposed, organising block voting.
Compulsory voting doesn't even exist in countries like Japan, where people are far more like sheep than the independent-minded West. And the final nail in your argument's coffin: spoiled ballots in Australia aren't counted as protest votes (RON); they're simply discarded. Some democracy. :rolleyes:
 
Kimpatsu said:

And that's the problem. You just can't see it. Next you'll be deciding which church gets preferential treatment from the state. Because you can't see what's wrong with that, either. :rolleyes:
It's you who doesn't get it. Compulsory votng is an easy anti-State target and held up as an invasion of freedom and rights. But we live with the reality of it in Australia and the practice of compulsory voting just hasn't matched the boogey-man rhetoric of those who oppose it in theory.
 
Jessica Blue said:
It's you who doesn't get it. Compulsory votng is an easy anti-State target and held up as an invasion of freedom and rights. But we live with the reality of it in Australia and the practice of compulsory voting just hasn't matched the boogey-man rhetoric of those who oppose it in theory.
One person forced to vote against their will is one person too many. That is the reality of the Bogeyman. Australia is trampling on people's rights, and if you're any indication, the populace are asleep at the wheel.
 
Jessicca I just see it as an unencessary violation of freedom of conscience. We can force people to actually study politics and history too, doesn't mean its a good idea. I think simply giving them a free day off on election times would do just as well, without making voting compulsory. Also they may be forced to vote for a group they very much can't in good conscience support, because all are bad to them.

Also some for some groups, like the Jehovah Witnesses, it is against their religion to vote.
 
Which is.....

corplinx said:
Democracy == Mob Rule

In democracy, instead of being led by an evil dictator you are ruled by a mostly ignorant and self-absorbed majority.

Make no mistake, a pure democracy can be as bad or worse than a dictatorship.

Now, federal republics on the other hand I dig.

Which is precisely the reason why the US has a Constitution. Obviously, it would be a scarey place if we were ruled purely by the will of the majority. It already is a little scarey at times, particular when you consider that many seem to consider the Constitution to be a pick and choose sort of document.
 
Jessica Blue said:
There's no conflict or inconsistency, because there is no encouragement not to make a legitimate vote. It's simply a fact that since voting is by secret ballot, there is no compulsion there to act against your conscience if you feel you shouldn't vote. Mandatory voting works by encouraging a sense of civic obligation to make a real vote, not forcing you to make one.
If you truly believe that citizens have a responsibility to cast "real votes" then you tacitly support measures aimed at preventing invalid votes. Otherwise you cannot honestly speak in terms of civic obligations, because an obligation to vote implies an obligation to cast a legitimate vote. You dodge criticism from opponents of mandatory voting by suggesting that it's possible to cast an invalid vote, but if it's wrong not to vote then it's just as wrong to cast an invalid vote. On the other hand, if it's okay to cast an invalid vote then the "obligation to vote" becomes nothing more than an "obligation to show up", which strikes me as rather silly.

Would you withdraw your support of compulsory voting if the system made it difficult or impossible to cast blank or invalid votes?
 
Kimpatsu said:

One person forced to vote against their will is one person too many. That is the reality of the Bogeyman. Australia is trampling on people's rights, and if you're any indication, the populace are asleep at the wheel.
How many times do I have to say no-one is forced to make a vote? Why don't you phrase that question "One person forced to have their name ticked off the electoral role is one person too many", because that would be more accurate.

You seem unable to accept that someone could have a different perspective on compulsory voting than you. It does not mean I or other Australians are "asleep at the wheel" and it's pretty arrogant of you to say that. If I were I wouldn't be bothering to justify my position with these posts.

Australians are not simply acquiescent to government impositions. There were, for example, well organised anti-conscription movements during World War One and the Vietnam War. The plan by the federal government a few years ago to introduce a national identity card was defeated by a large, spontaneous opposition uniting both left and right wing forces. Government compulsion is neither automatically accepted nor automatically rejected in Australia. I think we dont balk at compulsory voting because we see more benefits than negatives.

Because certain socio-economic groups tend to be politically shy and are less likely to vote under a voluntary system...abandoning compulsory voting would negatively affect the welfare of these groups. Perhaps one reason Australians seem to readily accept compulsory voting is not because we are *asleep at the wheel*, but because we view this particular social compulsion not in terms of inalienable rights but in terms pertaining to equality and welfare.

One important benefit of compulsory voting I should have emphasized is that it reduces the significance and power of money in determining the outcomes of elections. Here is an excerpt from an essay by Aust. former Liberal party senator Chris Puplick who makes a few relevent points:

Australia's electoral system is unique in being probably the fairest and least open to manipulation of any in the world. An independent Electoral Commission, redistributions conducted under judicial scrutiny, a system of preferential voting, the operation of the secret ballot, no age barriers preventing electors from seeking election as candidates, public funding of campaigns, the random listing and identification of party affiliation on ballot papers, and a number of other local practices ensure this. One of those unique local practices which contributes so much to the fairness of Australian elections is compulsory voting.

The people most likely not to vote are those who are least aware of their rights, the most disadvantaged and the ones most likely to be exploited by rich and powerful political and financial interests.

Keeping these people away from the polls is something which corrupt sectional interests always try to do. For example, in 1993 the Democratic Governor of New Jersey (USA), Jim Florio, was defeated in a campaign in which there was strong evidence that his Republican opponents had run a deliberate campaign (including actual allegations of bribery) to keep poor black voters (traditional Democrat Supporters) away from the polls.

Compulsory voting keeps down the cost of campaigns. The most expensive part of a campaign where there is no compulsory voting is having to 'turn on the vote'. A Senatorial campaign in the United States costs from $3 million to well over $12 million. The very act of having to raise large sums of money leaves candidates and political parties potentially beholden to their financial backers and thus keeping down the costs of campaigns reduces the potential for political corruption.

In the United States politics is characterised as 'the struggle of pressure groups versus the public interest'. Powerful lobbies such as the National Rifle Association dominate political life because they can motivate their members to get out and vote in numbers disproportionate to their real strength in the community.

Assume that pressure group X has the support of 5 per cent of the population, then in a compulsory voting situation it is likely to be able to influence 5 per cent of the vote. But if the number of people voting falls to 30 per cent and all the members of pressure group X vote, then their electoral strength is now 16 per cent. I believe pressure groups are proper and legitimate in our democracy but they should have no greater power to determine electoral outcomes than they actually possess in terms of real community support. Compulsory voting ensures this, while voluntary voting increases the disproportionate power of pressure groups. This again puts a premium on money. The richer and the more powerful can both better organise and better skew the outcome of elections to their sectional advantage than can the poorer, the less articulate and the less educated.

When opponents of compulsory voting characterise these people as 'apathetic' they reveal only their own class (and often racial) prejudices. There are as many 'apathetic' rich people as poor people, but those at the bottom of the socio-economic heap are the ones most likely not to know that it is by their participation in elections that they can best ensure a government that will not feel free to ignore them entirely. Similarly the proposition that only the 'educated and informed' should vote is a clear first step on the road to imposing qualifications on electors against which true democrats have always fought, and with good reason.

I am very proud of Australia's electoral system and while I favour regular review of all its aspects, I would not destroy any of them currently in place and to my mind functioning well. I believe compulsory voting is a major pillar which gives strength to one of the fairest and most democratic electoral systems currently practised.
 
I know your perspective is different, Jessica; it is also just plain wrong. I have a right to take no part in any element of the electoral process. Australia is asleep at the wheel, but the same can be said of other countries as well. The difference is that voting is not compulsory in Britain, America, or Canada, etc. Why on earth can't you understand that all compulsions are de facto unacceptable? What gives you the right to mandate how I must live my life? Your comment about being "proud of Australia's... system" is telling. This is jingoism at work. The only good thing I can say is that despite your dreams of being a totalitarian dictator, they are just that: dreams. John Howard, therefore, is by far the more dangerous enemy.
 
Originally posted by Adrian Lopez

If you truly believe that citizens have a responsibility to cast "real votes" then you tacitly support measures aimed at preventing invalid votes. Otherwise you cannot honestly speak in terms of civic obligations, because an obligation to vote implies an obligation to cast a legitimate vote. You dodge criticism from opponents of mandatory voting by suggesting that it's possible to cast an invalid vote, but if it's wrong not to vote then it's just as wrong to cast an invalid vote. On the other hand, if it's okay to cast an invalid vote then the "obligation to vote" becomes nothing more than an "obligation to show up", which strikes me as rather silly.
There is only an obligation to show up, which is why arguments that it is tyrannical, an infringement on conscience etc. are specious.The compulsory voting system is really a misnomer...it's intention is to encourage the community to view voting as a civil obligation, not to force a vote out of us.

Would you withdraw your support of compulsory voting if the system made it difficult or impossible to cast blank or invalid votes?
I can't imagine how that could be done without sacrificing the secret ballot which I think is essential to a democracy. But even if it could, yes I would withdraw my support, because while I think people should be encouraged to make a real vote, I don't think they should be forced.
 
What gives you the right to mandate how I must live my life?
Kimpatsu,

I'm not. Have I said you must adopt compulsory voting or even that you are wrong to hold your opinion? I'm just defending it because I believe in it.

Your comment about being "proud of Australia's... system" is telling.

That was Chris Puplicks comment. I put it in because I seem to be the only one supporting compulsory voting on this thread and I felt lonely!
 

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